Comments on: Sacrificing Children on the Altar of Parents’ Fanatical Faith http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:56:41 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Nancy Hudson http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-46124 Nancy Hudson Sun, 17 May 2009 16:48:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-46124 There is no way you can compare neglect based on religious zealotry to the morbidity/mortality that occurs when you seek and obtain medical treatment. Yes, medical error does occur because doctors are, after all, only human and make mistakes. Some make more than others and usually they are weeded out of the system. The majority of the time medical treatment does what it is supposed to do. People who die despite treatment would have died without it anyway..usually the diagnosis is late in those cases. Of course, the numbers will be skewed as most people seek treatment and eventually many succumb to their illness. What is at the heart of this issue is the idea of allowing parents to keep their children from getting treatment for diseases that frequently will be successfully treated, such as diabetes, Hodgkins lymphoma, etc. The arguments above don't change the fact that this is abuse and neglect, plain and simple. No, we don't have the answer to death yet, folks. No one should be sanctioned to hasten it along unless the patient is legally capable of asking for termination of his/her life in cases of terminal illness. There is no way you can compare neglect based on religious zealotry to the morbidity/mortality that occurs when you seek and obtain medical treatment. Yes, medical error does occur because doctors are, after all, only human and make mistakes. Some make more than others and usually they are weeded out of the system. The majority of the time medical treatment does what it is supposed to do. People who die despite treatment would have died without it anyway..usually the diagnosis is late in those cases. Of course, the numbers will be skewed as most people seek treatment and eventually many succumb to their illness. What is at the heart of this issue is the idea of allowing parents to keep their children from getting treatment for diseases that frequently will be successfully treated, such as diabetes, Hodgkins lymphoma, etc. The arguments above don’t change the fact that this is abuse and neglect, plain and simple. No, we don’t have the answer to death yet, folks. No one should be sanctioned to hasten it along unless the patient is legally capable of asking for termination of his/her life in cases of terminal illness.

]]> By: paris chanelle george http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-29299 paris chanelle george Sun, 05 Oct 2008 09:16:59 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-29299 well i dont know what to say i fell sorry for that child Bad parants well i dont know what to say i fell sorry for that child Bad parants

]]> By: Roberto http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-22556 Roberto Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:21:20 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-22556 For those of you who think that taking your chances with modern medicine is as bad or risky as taking your chances with "The Lord," I'll just wager that you'll go to church or simply "pray" instead of seeing a doctor or visiting a hospital when you get cancer or have a heart attack! But, somehow, its acceptable for a nut-job parent to leave his child to die? On Animal Planet's "Animal Cops" program we witness people being prosecuted all the time for neglecting their cats, dogs, and horses and not getting them proper vet care. Yet, somehow, its all-right to do the same to your child. These people are mentally ill and should be in institutions or prison! For those of you who think that taking your chances with modern medicine is as bad or risky as taking your chances with “The Lord,” I’ll just wager that you’ll go to church or simply “pray” instead of seeing a doctor or visiting a hospital when you get cancer or have a heart attack! But, somehow, its acceptable for a nut-job parent to leave his child to die? On Animal Planet’s “Animal Cops” program we witness people being prosecuted all the time for neglecting their cats, dogs, and horses and not getting them proper vet care. Yet, somehow, its all-right to do the same to your child. These people are mentally ill and should be in institutions or prison!

]]> By: hp http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17429 hp Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:06:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17429 God is not our order taker. God is not our order taker.

]]> By: AaronG http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17402 AaronG Wed, 02 Apr 2008 06:36:50 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17402 Time and space doesn't permit an in-depth analysis of the function of prayer as outlined in the Bible. Briefly, however, it is us humans who have mis-interpreted this communication forum between us and God, not God himself. We sometimes, especially and understandably in times of duress, consider it as a blank cheque (OK, there's the spelling clue, I'm an Aussie!) For example, if I decide to pray for a Lamborghini (red one, please, on the driveway by tomorrow morning) and it doesn't materialize, then assume that this prayer thing is a crock, is the avenue of prayer at fault, or is it my abuse of it? Anyway, why are my red Lamborghini desires any more important to God than a kid in Niger trying to fill his belly? The Bible actively encourages us to seek medical attention (however imperfect it is) - I'm sure the Bible writer and physician Luke would agree with me. Another Bible writer Paul told Timothy not to “drink water any longer, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.” (1 Timothy 5:23). This is actually a good verse to stick on the wine cabinet when someone says you have had too much shiraz. You can reply "it's not my fault, it's my stomach ache"! (But if I pray for the destruction of the evil Anglo-American world power, now that's another thing.............) Time and space doesn’t permit an in-depth analysis of the function of prayer as outlined in the Bible. Briefly, however, it is us humans who have mis-interpreted this communication forum between us and God, not God himself. We sometimes, especially and understandably in times of duress, consider it as a blank cheque (OK, there’s the spelling clue, I’m an Aussie!) For example, if I decide to pray for a Lamborghini (red one, please, on the driveway by tomorrow morning) and it doesn’t materialize, then assume that this prayer thing is a crock, is the avenue of prayer at fault, or is it my abuse of it? Anyway, why are my red Lamborghini desires any more important to God than a kid in Niger trying to fill his belly?

The Bible actively encourages us to seek medical attention (however imperfect it is) – I’m sure the Bible writer and physician Luke would agree with me. Another Bible writer Paul told Timothy not to “drink water any longer, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.” (1 Timothy 5:23). This is actually a good verse to stick on the wine cabinet when someone says you have had too much shiraz. You can reply “it’s not my fault, it’s my stomach ache”!

(But if I pray for the destruction of the evil Anglo-American world power, now that’s another thing………….)

]]> By: hp http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17386 hp Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:32:54 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17386 Mr. Weitzel, I don't see anyone here saying don't seek medical help. I came right out and said do so, as did AaronG. Though Mike and David did not say directly to seek medical help, they did not say don't seek help. Personally, although I avoid hospitals like the plague and rarely see a doctor, this is due to great health combined with terrible economics. When I have ever truly needed a doctor, I surely sought one. Mr. Weitzel, I don’t see anyone here saying don’t seek medical help. I came right out and said do so, as did AaronG.
Though Mike and David did not say directly to seek medical help, they did not say don’t seek help.
Personally, although I avoid hospitals like the plague and rarely see a doctor, this is due to great health combined with terrible economics. When I have ever truly needed a doctor, I surely sought one.

]]> By: Robert Weitzel http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17380 Robert Weitzel Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:47:55 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17380 Look folks, I've refrained from getting involved in the discussion because I wrote the piece . . . but seriously, you have to admit that modern medical science has one hell of a better track record for curing any number of diseases and ailments and trauma than prayer alone. I would have died several times in my life had I relied on prayer . . . one was as simple as being severely dehydrated from a prolonged illness . . a two hour trip to the emergency room and some antibiotics and I was at work three days later . . . no amount of praying and faith in some invisible something-or-other would have allowed me to ingest enough fluids to keep me alive. Like Kara, I would have died . . but then it would have been my responsibility. I hesitated going to the hospital because I was just out of the military and in school and lacked insurance. But there came a point in the illness when there was no other rational choice . . . that is, if I wanted to live. My decision cost me some bucks . . . not my life. I've also had two lower back (disk) operations that gave me my active life back (running, biking, skiing) . . no amount of praying would have fixed my back or stopped the pain (pills helped) that would have eventually driven me crazy or turned me into a addict . . . not to mention being crippled at the age of 39. Okay, while I agree that there are thousands of people who die from medical mistakes . . . my father-in-law may very well be one who is headed that direction, consider the hundreds of million each year who are cured by medical science . . . sometimes very simple medical science. . .rehydration fluids. And then consider the hundreds of millions of people who prayed for a cure that never materialized. A year ago I watched as a friend of 35 years died from a brain tumor . . . everyone she knew (except perhaps me) was praying to the very same idea of a god . . and she died and all her husband (my closest friend) could say was "why does god let bad people live and take such a good woman" and her mother said " that this whole thing has made me stop believing in a god ". . . . great job, god . . . I suppose he/she/it has a divine plan that is meant to be a mystery to my friend and his mother-in-law. Or maybe they just weren't worthy of "god's" help. But then neither were Kara's parents. Poor Kara!!! You know what really baffles me? A person of true faith and trust in their idea of a god would never pray . . except maybe for catharsis . . . but never for intervention. Because if they truly believed that their idea of a god had a divine plan for them and if they had faith in that plan, they would never feel the need to pray. So then, there is an inverse relationship between a person's true faith and the amount of time they spend in pray. The more they pray, the less faith they have. And sometimes that costs them their child's life. So we can kill, and I mean kill, our children to prove "our" faith. It is about the parents and their "walk with the lord" not the child . . I assume Kara wanted most of all to live. But her parents had to prove to themselves and their friends that they were tight with their idea of the lord. It's the 21st century folks . . yes, be skeptical of a diagnosis . . get a second or third opinion . . give your doctor hell if need be to get satisfaction and then hold them accountable in a court of law for malpractice (doctors don't have exemptions from responsibility that religious parents do),and pray by all means, if you need the catharsis. . . but you really haven't got a "prayer" without medical science. Look folks, I’ve refrained from getting involved in the discussion because I wrote the piece . . . but seriously, you have to admit that modern medical science has one hell of a better track record for curing any number of diseases and ailments and trauma than prayer alone. I would have died several times in my life had I relied on prayer . . . one was as simple as being severely dehydrated from a prolonged illness . . a two hour trip to the emergency room and some antibiotics and I was at work three days later . . . no amount of praying and faith in some invisible something-or-other would have allowed me to ingest enough fluids to keep me alive. Like Kara, I would have died . . but then it would have been my responsibility. I hesitated going to the hospital because I was just out of the military and in school and lacked insurance. But there came a point in the illness when there was no other rational choice . . . that is, if I wanted to live. My decision cost me some bucks . . . not my life.

I’ve also had two lower back (disk) operations that gave me my active life back (running, biking, skiing) . . no amount of praying would have fixed my back or stopped the pain (pills helped) that would have eventually driven me crazy or turned me into a addict . . . not to mention being crippled at the age of 39.

Okay, while I agree that there are thousands of people who die from medical mistakes . . . my father-in-law may very well be one who is headed that direction, consider the hundreds of million each year who are cured by medical science . . . sometimes very simple medical science. . .rehydration fluids. And then consider the hundreds of millions of people who prayed for a cure that never materialized. A year ago I watched as a friend of 35 years died from a brain tumor . . . everyone she knew (except perhaps me) was praying to the very same idea of a god . . and she died and all her husband (my closest friend) could say was “why does god let bad people live and take such a good woman” and her mother said ” that this whole thing has made me stop believing in a god “. . . . great job, god . . . I suppose he/she/it has a divine plan that is meant to be a mystery to my friend and his mother-in-law. Or maybe they just weren’t worthy of “god’s” help. But then neither were Kara’s parents. Poor Kara!!!

You know what really baffles me? A person of true faith and trust in their idea of a god would never pray . . except maybe for catharsis . . . but never for intervention. Because if they truly believed that their idea of a god had a divine plan for them and if they had faith in that plan, they would never feel the need to pray. So then, there is an inverse relationship between a person’s true faith and the amount of time they spend in pray. The more they pray, the less faith they have. And sometimes that costs them their child’s life.

So we can kill, and I mean kill, our children to prove “our” faith. It is about the parents and their “walk with the lord” not the child . . I assume Kara wanted most of all to live. But her parents had to prove to themselves and their friends that they were tight with their idea of the lord.

It’s the 21st century folks . . yes, be skeptical of a diagnosis . . get a second or third opinion . . give your doctor hell if need be to get satisfaction and then hold them accountable in a court of law for malpractice (doctors don’t have exemptions from responsibility that religious parents do),and pray by all means, if you need the catharsis. . . but you really haven’t got a “prayer” without medical science.

]]> By: hp http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17375 hp Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:18:58 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17375 AaronG, thanks for reminding me. I agree. For God's sake, get medical help. One other note, as gruesome, sad and inhuman though it may be, is a demonstration of the government's own ultimate concern for the welfare of children. Remember Waco? AaronG,
thanks for reminding me. I agree. For God’s sake, get medical help.
One other note, as gruesome, sad and inhuman though it may be, is a demonstration of the government’s own ultimate concern for the welfare of children.
Remember Waco?

]]> By: AaronG http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17373 AaronG Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:48:57 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17373 I'll back up hp and say great balanced comment by Mike. It takes courage to be balanced, particularly on a sensitive subject like the death of 172 innocent children in 20 years. The risk of bringing balance to any debate is the charge that "you don't care about those 172 children who lost out on life". However, although statistics can be cold and impersonal, the thousands quoted above that do die in hospital actually bring some reality to the situation. Even though some purport not to believe in a god, and that's their right, they may need to analyze if they show a similar blind faith in the god Medical 'Science', which is by far all-knowing and, at times, an art, not a science. For instance, "I'd like you to swallow this pill, or have this operation, because studies (maybe funded by Pfizer) indicate that 67% of mice had a favourable reaction to the pill/operation" . Don't mess with my body with those kind of stats, pal! Prayer is not going to bring that severed limb back, but medical 'science' cannot guarantee 100% of the time that a particular pill or operation will work, or that you will not contract staphylococci whilst in hospital. So, if you break your leg, get to the hospital quick and let the experts patch you up, but at the same time hold your breath, cross your fingers, play with your rosary beads, pray to Allah or God or Whoever that you won't get complications. But for God's sake, get medical help. I’ll back up hp and say great balanced comment by Mike. It takes courage to be balanced, particularly on a sensitive subject like the death of 172 innocent children in 20 years. The risk of bringing balance to any debate is the charge that “you don’t care about those 172 children who lost out on life”. However, although statistics can be cold and impersonal, the thousands quoted above that do die in hospital actually bring some reality to the situation. Even though some purport not to believe in a god, and that’s their right, they may need to analyze if they show a similar blind faith in the god Medical ‘Science’, which is by far all-knowing and, at times, an art, not a science. For instance, “I’d like you to swallow this pill, or have this operation, because studies (maybe funded by Pfizer) indicate that 67% of mice had a favourable reaction to the pill/operation” . Don’t mess with my body with those kind of stats, pal!

Prayer is not going to bring that severed limb back, but medical ’science’ cannot guarantee 100% of the time that a particular pill or operation will work, or that you will not contract staphylococci whilst in hospital.

So, if you break your leg, get to the hospital quick and let the experts patch you up, but at the same time hold your breath, cross your fingers, play with your rosary beads, pray to Allah or God or Whoever that you won’t get complications. But for God’s sake, get medical help.

]]> By: hp http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17348 hp Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:27:26 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17348 Both good points above. Mike and the fantasy of government as protector when in actuality government, in all its malicious and impersonal forms, is the #1 cause of death world wide the past couple of centuries. At least. A fanatical faith if there ever was one. And David is correct with negligence/accidents killing upwards of 100,000 each year while in the hospital. At least. One question: If a woman can have an abortion because 'it's my body,' then why can't I sell my eyes or kidneys? Both good points above. Mike and the fantasy of government as protector when in actuality government, in all its malicious and impersonal forms, is the #1 cause of death world wide the past couple of centuries. At least. A fanatical faith if there ever was one.
And David is correct with negligence/accidents killing upwards of 100,000 each year while in the hospital. At least.
One question: If a woman can have an abortion because ‘it’s my body,’ then why can’t I sell my eyes or kidneys?

]]> By: David http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17344 David Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:44:11 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17344 While I'm not supportive of prayer as a response to life threatening illness, a little perspective might be in order here. While the anecdotal list of dead children is heart breaking, could we not also create such a list of dead children who were the victims of our modern health care system? From hospital based drug resistant bacteria, to hospital mismanagement, to outright medical malpractice, thousands more die unnecessarily each year in our hospitals than from an overindulgence in prayer. Substituting a blind faith in prayer for a blind faith in modern medicine does not strike me as a great improvement. While I’m not supportive of prayer as a response to life threatening illness, a little perspective might be in order here. While the anecdotal list of dead children is heart breaking, could we not also create such a list of dead children who were the victims of our modern health care system? From hospital based drug resistant bacteria, to hospital mismanagement, to outright medical malpractice, thousands more die unnecessarily each year in our hospitals than from an overindulgence in prayer. Substituting a blind faith in prayer for a blind faith in modern medicine does not strike me as a great improvement.

]]> By: Mike http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17338 Mike Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:13:00 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/sacrificing-children-on-the-altar-of-parents%e2%80%99-fanatical-faith/#comment-17338 The only thing more idiotic that relying on a supernatural being to right all wrongs is the belief system that purports the strong arm of the government can right all wrongs. The only thing more idiotic that relying on a supernatural being to right all wrongs is the belief system that purports the strong arm of the government can right all wrongs.

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