Comments on: Killing Turkeys and the “Win-Win” Scenario http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:17:24 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Mr. Anonymous http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-14929 Mr. Anonymous Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:08:06 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-14929 You idiots: besides "crying" over a dumb turkey, chicken or pig, what else are you doing? Nothing. And since when animal farms are so "contaminating"? You think we readers are idiots like you? Go to hell! You idiots: besides “crying” over a dumb turkey, chicken or pig, what else are you doing? Nothing. And since when animal farms are so “contaminating”? You think we readers are idiots like you? Go to hell!

]]> By: Lee Hall http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-14220 Lee Hall Sat, 09 Feb 2008 06:49:38 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-14220 Thank you very much Dustin, Marie, Edita, and Leslie for the encouraging words. Yes, I’m all too familiar with that response you’ve received, Leslie. Of course, vegans don’t have some kind of odd genetic makeup that makes it easier for us to relinquish certain products. As you note, the conception of vegans as giving up something misses the point that vegan living reflects a commitment to renounce a terrible violence, and to decide on the side of peace, which is not a loss at all. It inspires creative attention to preparing food with a whole new sense of respect, love, energy… A vegan commitment is a wonderful thing to have. Robert, thank you for sharing your thoughts as well. It’s valuable, I think, to note that Donald Watson, Elsie Shriglie and a few others in 1944 introduced the Vegan Society in the spirit of profound respect for animals and a clear viewpoint that spacious or family-run farms weren't the answer back then, and never will be. Other animals, as Watson saw them, are not to exist at our whim until they outlive their usefulness to us. Nothing less than respect was acceptable, and use was not respect. Free-range farming is no step in the right direction in Watson’s paradigm; in fact, it was a free-range farm that Watson found absolutely unacceptable. It was a family farm that Watson called Death Row. Thank you very much Dustin, Marie, Edita, and Leslie for the encouraging words. Yes, I’m all too familiar with that response you’ve received, Leslie. Of course, vegans don’t have some kind of odd genetic makeup that makes it easier for us to relinquish certain products. As you note, the conception of vegans as giving up something misses the point that vegan living reflects a commitment to renounce a terrible violence, and to decide on the side of peace, which is not a loss at all. It inspires creative attention to preparing food with a whole new sense of respect, love, energy… A vegan commitment is a wonderful thing to have.

Robert, thank you for sharing your thoughts as well. It’s valuable, I think, to note that Donald Watson, Elsie Shriglie and a few others in 1944 introduced the Vegan Society in the spirit of profound respect for animals and a clear viewpoint that spacious or family-run farms weren’t the answer back then, and never will be. Other animals, as Watson saw them, are not to exist at our whim until they outlive their usefulness to us. Nothing less than respect was acceptable, and use was not respect. Free-range farming is no step in the right direction in Watson’s paradigm; in fact, it was a free-range farm that Watson found absolutely unacceptable. It was a family farm that Watson called Death Row.

]]> By: Robert H S http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-14178 Robert H S Fri, 08 Feb 2008 01:19:19 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-14178 Although it's true that true animal advocates should boycott the industry of Hormel and others, it is not a bad thing to promote better conditions for the animals that will ultimately end up as food. If it is indeed "marketing assistance" for alternative farmers, it is worth it. As a vegan myself, I too run into others who "could never give up meat, etc." but the majority of these otherwise nice folks don't want to know the grisly truth. They won't even read an article about it. By creating an issue out of nicer treatment of animals, it conveys to no-so-enlightened meat eaters that these animals must have some value. If farms were nicer, average people wouldn't be afraid to look in on one. This would give us more potential activists. Perhaps it would be more people "hacking at the branches", but this is a positive thing if they were heretofore fertilizing the evil tree. Striking at the root of evil is a good thing to do, just don't do it in an underground manner. It needs to be seen, and perceived as evil. Remember, before we had factory farming, people ate more vegetables and less meat. Although it’s true that true animal advocates should boycott the industry of Hormel and others, it is not a bad thing to promote better conditions for the animals that will ultimately end up as food. If it is indeed “marketing assistance” for alternative farmers, it is worth it. As a vegan myself, I too run into others who “could never give up meat, etc.” but the majority of these otherwise nice folks don’t want to know the grisly truth. They won’t even read an article about it. By creating an issue out of nicer treatment of animals, it conveys to no-so-enlightened meat eaters that these animals must have some value. If farms were nicer, average people wouldn’t be afraid to look in on one. This would give us more potential activists. Perhaps it would be more people “hacking at the branches”, but this is a positive thing if they were heretofore fertilizing the evil tree. Striking at the root of evil is a good thing to do, just don’t do it in an underground manner. It needs to be seen, and perceived as evil. Remember, before we had factory farming, people ate more vegetables and less meat.

]]> By: Marie A http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13954 Marie A Sun, 03 Feb 2008 15:20:05 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13954 Whew! From the first quote of "....how turkeys are processed...." when I silently screamed, "....no, it's that they ARE KILLED..." I knew this would be another thought-provoking article from Lee Hall. Thank you! Whew! From the first quote of “….how turkeys are processed….” when I silently screamed, “….no, it’s that they ARE KILLED…” I knew this would be another thought-provoking article from Lee Hall. Thank you!

]]> By: Leslie http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13918 Leslie Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:53:23 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13918 Thanks for another great posting from Lee Hall. When I tell people I am vegan, they often cringe and reply that they could never "give up" [fill in the blank animal product(s)]. I tell them I don't think of a vegan diet as "giving up" anything. Rather, I think of it as boycotting industries and practices that I find morally abhorrent. Lee's comment that "Our role is to show people what to strive for rather than what to settle for" is going to be my new mantra. Great work, Lee! Thanks for another great posting from Lee Hall. When I tell people I am vegan, they often cringe and reply that they could never “give up” [fill in the blank animal product(s)]. I tell them I don’t think of a vegan diet as “giving up” anything. Rather, I think of it as boycotting industries and practices that I find morally abhorrent. Lee’s comment that “Our role is to show people what to strive for rather than what to settle for” is going to be my new mantra. Great work, Lee!

]]> By: Edita Birnkrant http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13912 Edita Birnkrant Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:13:35 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13912 I thank Lee for this inspiring and brilliant essay. Those of us who call ourselves animal advocates sorely need to be reminded of the message given here: fighting the root cause of animal exploitation, and not straying from our principles is what will lead to a movement with real power. Lee's analogies of other movements, such as the fair-trade and anti-apartheid movements is a sharp reminder to those of us who believe ourselves to be conscientious objectors. Every one of us can be a leader in our own lives, and now more than ever, we need to set the bar high. Our cause is just, and the seduction of co-option and moral compromise needs to be resisted and fought if we are really serious about animal rights. Friends of Animals is the leader in this respect, and shows us what being a (vegan) consientous objector truly means, and understands that being real advocates means not taking the easy way out for short-term gain. An inspiring message in so many ways: Bravo! I thank Lee for this inspiring and brilliant essay. Those of us who call ourselves animal advocates sorely need to be reminded of the message given here: fighting the root cause of animal exploitation, and not straying from our principles is what will lead to a movement with real power.
Lee’s analogies of other movements, such as the fair-trade and anti-apartheid movements is a sharp reminder to those of us who believe ourselves to be conscientious objectors. Every one of us can be a leader in our own lives, and now more than ever, we need to set the bar high. Our cause is just, and the seduction of co-option and moral compromise needs to be resisted and fought if we are really serious about animal rights. Friends of Animals is the leader in this respect, and shows us what being a (vegan) consientous objector truly means, and understands that being real advocates means not taking the easy way out for short-term gain. An inspiring message in so many ways: Bravo!

]]> By: Dustin Rhodes http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13903 Dustin Rhodes Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:41:24 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/killing-turkeys-and-the-%e2%80%9cwin-win%e2%80%9d-scenario/#comment-13903 Here's to a vegan world(!)... Here’s to a vegan world(!)…

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