Comments on: Beware of the Snakes in the Grass http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:51:44 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: jaime http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14667 jaime Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:14:46 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14667 Finkelstein's a good role model for you! Finkelstein’s a good role model for you!

]]> By: sk http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14519 sk Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:51:26 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14519 FYI, cogent advice from Norman Finkelstein on the importance of "steer[ing] as much away as possible from slogans and sloganeering". His top advice for dealing with those whose mission in life is to deflect attention from the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestine (which can be heard between minutes 3-6 of <a href="http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2008/01/390182.mp3" rel="nofollow">this</a> recent talk) is: <blockquote> Number 1: steering clear of ideological debates and discussion...I never mention the word Zionism, because I don't want to get involved in ideological debate about whether or not you're a Zionist. </blockquote> FYI, cogent advice from Norman Finkelstein on the importance of “steer[ing] as much away as possible from slogans and sloganeering”. His top advice for dealing with those whose mission in life is to deflect attention from the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestine (which can be heard between minutes 3-6 of this recent talk) is:

Number 1: steering clear of ideological debates and discussion…I never mention the word Zionism, because I don’t want to get involved in ideological debate about whether or not you’re a Zionist.

]]> By: Gary Lapon http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14449 Gary Lapon Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:18:33 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14449 Here, Tony G makes the case that Gilad Atzmon's positions are anti-Semitic and therefore detrimental to the movement for Palestinian liberation. Anti-Semitism was the keystone of the ideology used to justify the Zionist project from the beginning ("a land without a people, for a people without a land"), and Zionists today falsely accuse Palestinian liberation activists (and anyone who criticizes Israel) of anti-Semitism. This does not mean, however, that there is no anti-Semitism within the movement. Tony G does not oppose anti-Semitism primarily because he feels it's a major threat to Jews (he actually states that he thinks it's declining in the West); he opposes it because he thinks it weakens the Palestinian liberation movement. It weakens the movement because it supports the Zionist argument that anti-Semitism is eternal, still a major problem, and that therefore the state of Israel is necessary. Read it, read Atzmon, and decide for yourself. If Atzmon is in fact anti-Semitic, then I think that picketing his appearances makes sense, since bigotry should always be confronted no matter who it targets, and a movement that takes a principled stand against all forms of oppression is likely to be most effective: Atzmon's article: http://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon11222006.html Tony G's response: http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2006/12/countering-counterpuncher-atzmon.html Here, Tony G makes the case that Gilad Atzmon’s positions are anti-Semitic and therefore detrimental to the movement for Palestinian liberation. Anti-Semitism was the keystone of the ideology used to justify the Zionist project from the beginning (”a land without a people, for a people without a land”), and Zionists today falsely accuse Palestinian liberation activists (and anyone who criticizes Israel) of anti-Semitism. This does not mean, however, that there is no anti-Semitism within the movement. Tony G does not oppose anti-Semitism primarily because he feels it’s a major threat to Jews (he actually states that he thinks it’s declining in the West); he opposes it because he thinks it weakens the Palestinian liberation movement. It weakens the movement because it supports the Zionist argument that anti-Semitism is eternal, still a major problem, and that therefore the state of Israel is necessary.

Read it, read Atzmon, and decide for yourself. If Atzmon is in fact anti-Semitic, then I think that picketing his appearances makes sense, since bigotry should always be confronted no matter who it targets, and a movement that takes a principled stand against all forms of oppression is likely to be most effective:

Atzmon’s article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon11222006.html

Tony G’s response: http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2006/12/countering-counterpuncher-atzmon.html

]]> By: thecutter http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14433 thecutter Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:20:14 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14433 http://www.tlaxcala.es/detail_artistes.asp?lg=es&reference=122 This is what Palestinians and activists for Palestinians have to say to Tony Greenstein. There are quite a few signatures. Obviously, he disregards what they think, which is quite telling. http://www.tlaxcala.es/detail_artistes.asp?lg=es&reference=122

This is what Palestinians and activists for Palestinians have to say to Tony Greenstein. There are quite a few signatures. Obviously, he disregards what they think, which is quite telling.

]]> By: DavidG. http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14416 DavidG. Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:20:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14416 The continuing tragedy of Palestine is a blot upon the whole world. It demonstrates how easy it is for a small, strategically placed group of influential, monied, religious fanatics to manipulate the whole world. No other nation in the world would be allowed to get away with what Israel does: the genocide, the occupation, the warcrimes, the stealing of land, the collective punishment, the ignoring of U.N. Resolutions and Human Rights Conventions, etc. It is an indictment of most nations in the world, especially America. The continuing tragedy of Palestine is a blot upon the whole world. It demonstrates how easy it is for a small, strategically placed group of influential, monied, religious fanatics to manipulate the whole world.

No other nation in the world would be allowed to get away with what Israel does: the genocide, the occupation, the warcrimes, the stealing of land, the collective punishment, the ignoring of U.N. Resolutions and Human Rights Conventions, etc.

It is an indictment of most nations in the world, especially America.

]]> By: Rev. José M. Tirado http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14403 Rev. José M. Tirado Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:47:48 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14403 Michael, Please tell me the source of statements such as "The logic of Israel for Europe..:" or "What worries European leaders..:" or "European leaders fear..:" or "European leaders want..:". I live in Europe, travel to Greece, Italy, Spain and Britain pretty regularly and have yet to meet one "European leader" nor have I met anyone in Europe who shared your view of Jews in Europe or what "Europe" wants. Maybe I´m missing something. But what is the source of your information about Europe and its leaders? Best, José Michael,
Please tell me the source of statements such as “The logic of Israel for Europe..:” or “What worries European leaders..:” or “European leaders fear..:” or “European leaders want..:”.

I live in Europe, travel to Greece, Italy, Spain and Britain pretty regularly and have yet to meet one “European leader” nor have I met anyone in Europe who shared your view of Jews in Europe or what “Europe” wants. Maybe I´m missing something. But what is the source of your information about Europe and its leaders?
Best,
José

]]> By: heike http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14378 heike Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:09:04 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14378 http://www.socialistunity.com/?page_id=1665 Greenstein's recently published response to de Rooij, for those interested in the other side of the story. http://www.socialistunity.com/?page_id=1665

Greenstein’s recently published response to de Rooij, for those interested in the other side of the story.

]]> By: Michael Kenny http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14371 Michael Kenny Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:39:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14371 I’m never very happy with personal attacks on named people, which are an American bad habit. I have never heard of Mr Greenstein and have no idea if Mr de Rooij’s criticisms of him are justified. However, Mr de Rooij raises an interesting point about European attitudes towards Israel. Except for rural Poland, where an American attempt to re-colonise the “Stadtle” with Jews has given rise to an anti-Jewish political party, anti-Jewish feeling in European at the moment is more or less zero. That’s not because Europeans like the Jews but rather because, unlike earlier generations, they simply don’t see very many of them. There are currently about 2.3 million Jews in Europe, 0.3% of the population, 15% of the world’s Jews. Of those about 700 000 live in Russia and about 600 000 in France, where they represent 1% of the population, the largest in Europe. Moreover, roughly half the French Jews live in Paris. In 1933, there were about 9.5 million, 2% of Europe’s population and 60% of the world’s Jews. In addition, the strategy of the European Jews since WWII has been to be invisible. To hide in plain sight, so to speak. That strategy has been immensely successful, allowing them to recover their property and re-establish their business and professional activities while avoiding charges that they are “taking over” and the resentment that that would breed. US neocon antics have made the European elite increasingly conscious that Jews have got into positions, particularly in the economy and the media, which give them influence and power far beyond their numbers, but nobody really sees what can be done about it, or even if anything should be done about it. The logic of Israel for Europe was to get rid of the Jews, or most of them, once and for all and as far as the man in the European street can see, that has happened. What worries European leaders is what would happen if Israel suddenly collapsed. Since many Israelis have European nationalities, they would probably flood back into Europe and the effect and the effect of that remains to be seen, particularly if it was accompanied by an economic crisis, following, say, the collapse of the US. Equally, European leaders fear that any rise in anti-Jewish feeling in Europe would start the remaining European Jews fleeing towards Israel, which would aggravate the situation there and make a political solution even more difficult. At the same time, they do not dare offend the Arab/Muslim world because of its current wealth and influence. Thus, European leaders want a political solution in Palestine. Any solution. At any price. That leads to (typically European!) ambiguity. Basically, the Palestinians can name their price ... as long as it does not involve any significant number of Israelis flooding into Europe! The current “seepage” of population from Israel towards the US thus suits Europe extremely well, and is probably viewed as the best long-term solution, but the lid has to be kept on the pot until then! Thus it is not so much that Europe is in some way “complicit” with Israel but that it is looking after No 1, i.e Europe! If the US had done likewise, it might not be in its current mess! Nor, indeed, would the Middle East! I’m never very happy with personal attacks on named people, which are an American bad habit. I have never heard of Mr Greenstein and have no idea if Mr de Rooij’s criticisms of him are justified. However, Mr de Rooij raises an interesting point about European attitudes towards Israel.

Except for rural Poland, where an American attempt to re-colonise the “Stadtle” with Jews has given rise to an anti-Jewish political party, anti-Jewish feeling in European at the moment is more or less zero. That’s not because Europeans like the Jews but rather because, unlike earlier generations, they simply don’t see very many of them. There are currently about 2.3 million Jews in Europe, 0.3% of the population, 15% of the world’s Jews. Of those about 700 000 live in Russia and about 600 000 in France, where they represent 1% of the population, the largest in Europe. Moreover, roughly half the French Jews live in Paris. In 1933, there were about 9.5 million, 2% of Europe’s population and 60% of the world’s Jews.

In addition, the strategy of the European Jews since WWII has been to be invisible. To hide in plain sight, so to speak. That strategy has been immensely successful, allowing them to recover their property and re-establish their business and professional activities while avoiding charges that they are “taking over” and the resentment that that would breed. US neocon antics have made the European elite increasingly conscious that Jews have got into positions, particularly in the economy and the media, which give them influence and power far beyond their numbers, but nobody really sees what can be done about it, or even if anything should be done about it.

The logic of Israel for Europe was to get rid of the Jews, or most of them, once and for all and as far as the man in the European street can see, that has happened. What worries European leaders is what would happen if Israel suddenly collapsed. Since many Israelis have European nationalities, they would probably flood back into Europe and the effect and the effect of that remains to be seen, particularly if it was accompanied by an economic crisis, following, say, the collapse of the US. Equally, European leaders fear that any rise in anti-Jewish feeling in Europe would start the remaining European Jews fleeing towards Israel, which would aggravate the situation there and make a political solution even more difficult. At the same time, they do not dare offend the Arab/Muslim world because of its current wealth and influence.

Thus, European leaders want a political solution in Palestine. Any solution. At any price. That leads to (typically European!) ambiguity. Basically, the Palestinians can name their price … as long as it does not involve any significant number of Israelis flooding into Europe! The current “seepage” of population from Israel towards the US thus suits Europe extremely well, and is probably viewed as the best long-term solution, but the lid has to be kept on the pot until then!

Thus it is not so much that Europe is in some way “complicit” with Israel but that it is looking after No 1, i.e Europe! If the US had done likewise, it might not be in its current mess! Nor, indeed, would the Middle East!

]]> By: greybeard http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14361 greybeard Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:34:06 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14361 On this side of the "pond", I had heard of the viciousness of some of the "ultra-left" anti-Zionists, but not seen an example of it. Mr. de Rooij puts his finger on the essential problem--the maintaining of an "insider-outsider" mentality even though the "outsider" is promoting fairness (e.g., with respect to Palestinians). Both Atzmon and Eisen of classy people, working in an incredibly hostile environmnet. England is richer for having them, as well as now having Ilan Pappe. On this side of the “pond”, I had heard of the viciousness of some of the “ultra-left” anti-Zionists, but not seen an example of it. Mr. de Rooij puts his finger on the essential problem–the maintaining of an “insider-outsider” mentality even though the “outsider” is promoting fairness (e.g., with respect to Palestinians). Both Atzmon and Eisen of classy people, working in an incredibly hostile environmnet. England is richer for having them, as well as now having Ilan Pappe.

]]> By: sk http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14357 sk Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:06:31 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14357 FYI, MP3s of Gilad Atzmon's Brighton talk which Tony Greenstein tried to shut down. It's entitled 'The Primacy of the Ear: The Road from Music to Ethics' : <a href="http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2008/01/389064.mp3" rel="nofollow">Part 1</a> and <a href="http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2008/01/389065.mp3" rel="nofollow">Part 2</a>. FYI, MP3s of Gilad Atzmon’s Brighton talk which Tony Greenstein tried to shut down. It’s entitled ‘The Primacy of the Ear: The Road from Music to Ethics’ : Part 1 and Part 2.

]]> By: Shep http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14356 Shep Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:35:18 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/beware-of-the-snakes-in-the-grass/#comment-14356 Fine article. The story of the century is how a little, illegally-peopled country, backed by powerful financial interests, has its claws so deeply into the entire global industrial society that most often they are the only ones presenting information on both sides of virtually every issue. The reach and depth of the penetration is truly amazing. Fine article. The story of the century is how a little, illegally-peopled country, backed by powerful financial interests, has its claws so deeply into the entire global industrial society that most often they are the only ones presenting information on both sides of virtually every issue. The reach and depth of the penetration is truly amazing.

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