Don

You claim to having read Marx. Then you should have gleaned from the reading that the very first requirement for a worker to understand his or her economic relationaship in a capitalist society. One would think that you would not have delve deeply into Marx’s writing to grasp some of that. Be aware of your surroundings, Marx didn’t just conjure stuff out of his head, he was aware of his surroundings and a schoar of history. Do you fancy yourself a scholar of history.

The US capitalist economy came to screeching halt during the “Great Depression.” Why? The system was able to produce an abundance of everything for everyone. Well, why not, the capitalist class extracted excessive surplus value through exploitation of wage labor (what Marx referred to as “wage slavery”). In layman’s terms excessive surplus value means excessive profits. Here is the key to the rub. Pay workers more and they are able to buy more. Pay them less and they are able to buy less. All workers should know that the tendency of the capitalist class is to reduce its capital investment, socially necessary labor time (the hourly time a worker expends in the production of a product). It follows that all workers should know that when the capitalist class does that (squeeze blood out of a turnip) and take his reduce pay check to the store, he can buy less of the merchandise. That is not a tendency, it is a fact of life exerted upon the worker by the veracious appetite the capitalist class has for profit.

What brought the US capitalism out of the depression was a great war (”the war to end all wars”!!!). But along with that came a major hitch. Who is going to pay for it. The more that the capitalist class foots the bill, the less their profit margin is–perish the thought. The capitalist class informs its governmental lackys, just charge it. Charge it to who or what? From thereon came about the floating of paper. But there is a limit to floating paper within the nation. Upon the great war, it is piled upon by the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War and all the other minor military expeditions. There came a time when the domestic float of paper became saturated (workers should know what a float is, with the use of computers,transaction became almost immediate. Workers can no longer float, write out a check without funds in the checking account to cover it and hope to make a deposit to cover it in time. Even before the advent of computers, the worker’s float would be saturated quickly). Several years ago, the US started to stretch the float with foreign countries. In the beginning mainly with Japan and now heaped on with China. Can you imagine, dealing all those year with that “red scare” and now heaping upon our country’s float from that country, and the Chinese Communist Party is still intact! A corollary is the float (plastic) of the working class (commonally referred to as consumers), the vast majority of the country. Now with the saturation of paper float is added the saturation of plastic float. One doesn’t have to laboriously peruse the writings of Marx to see that. Just plant your eyes on the business section of the daily newspapers (be aware of your surroundings). The one thing that economists agree on is that the major element that drives the American economy are the everyday consumers, of course they shudder to say the working class.

As any worker should readily see, the country is in dire straits. The first order of the day is not to frantically dissipate energy thrashing the proposition of socialism. If a worker so fervently rejects socialism, then the logical thing to do is come up with a better proposition to put an end to the dire straits of capitalist economy. “Government for the people, by the people and of the people,” and “we the people,” lets us hear it. The silence is deafening.

Don

You claim to having read Marx. Then you should have gleaned from the reading that the very first requirement for a worker to understand his or her economic relationaship in a capitalist society. One would think that you would not have delve deeply into Marx’s writing to grasp some of that. Be aware of your surroundings, Marx didn’t just conjure stuff out of his head, he was aware of his surroundings and a schoar of history. Do you fancy yourself a scholar of history.

The US capitalist economy came to screeching halt during the “Great Depression.” Why? The system was able to produce an abundance of everything for everyone. Well, why not, the capitalist class extracted excessive surplus value through exploitation of wage labor (what Marx referred to as “wage slavery”). In layman’s terms excessive surplus value means excessive profits. Here is the key to the rub. Pay workers more and they are able to buy more. Pay them less and they are able to buy less. All workers should know that the tendency of the capitalist class is to reduce its capital investment, socially necessary labor time (the hourly time a worker expends in the production of a product). It follows that all workers should know that when the capitalist class does that (squeeze blood out of a turnip) and take his reduce pay check to the store, he can buy less of the merchandise. That is not a tendency, it is a fact of life exerted upon the worker by the veracious appetite the capitalist class has for profit.

What brought the US capitalism out of the depression was a great war (”the war to end all wars”!!!). But along with that came a major hitch. Who is going to pay for it. The more that the capitalist class foots the bill, the less their profit margin is–perish the thought. The capitalist class informs its governmental lackys, just charge it. Charge it to who or what? From thereon came about the floating of paper. But there is a limit to floating paper within the nation. Upon the great war, it is piled upon by the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War and all the other minor military expeditions. There came a time when the domestic float of paper became saturated (workers should know what a float is, with the use of computers,transaction became almost immediate. Workers can no longer float, write out a check without funds in the checking account to cover it and hope to make a deposit to cover it in time. Even before the advent of computers, the worker’s float would be saturated quickly). Several years ago, the US started to stretch the float with foreign countries. In the beginning mainly with Japan and now heaped on with China. Can you imagine, dealing all those year with that “red scare” and now heaping upon our country’s float from that country, and the Chinese Communist Party is still intact! A corollary is the float (plastic) of the working class (commonally referred to as consumers), the vast majority of the country. Now with the saturation of paper float is added the saturation of plastic float. One doesn’t have to laboriously peruse the writings of Marx to see that. Just plant your eyes on the business section of the daily newspapers (be aware of your surroundings). The one thing that economists agree on is that the major element that drives the American economy are the everyday consumers, of course they shudder to say the working class.

As any worker should readily see, the country is in dire straits. The first order of the day is not to frantically dissipate energy thrashing the proposition of socialism. If a worker so fervently rejects socialism, then the logical thing to do is come up with a better proposition to put an end to the dire straits of capitalist economy. “Government for the people, by the people and of the people,” and “we the people,” lets us hear it. The silence is deafening.

Don

“They knew that they belonged to the working class and they knew that their interest was in opposition to that of the capitalist class. They knew that they were not getting enough pay to buy the necessities for life needed by them and their wives and children. They were class conscious. They didn’t need anyone to tell them what to do. On their own part, they had the gumption to organize and form a union. That in spite of the actual fire power used against them as it was done all over the United States by the proud back shooters (themselves being members of the working class, mind you) who dutifully served the capitalist class, but that is another part of the story.”

Is there any sign today of workers having the gumption to bank together to organize for the betterment of society–to produce for use instead of profit, with profit continually increasing and workers pay decreasing. Or is everyone waiting for the man on the white horse to come galloping to the rescue.

Those workers I refer to are long gone, blacklisting, firing, intimidation, have tamed the brave and if that isn’t enough throw in a war now and then to keep them occupied with protecting the American dream.

All I see in the present is disorganized confusion.. I have been in the bowls of the beast, where workers are pitted against each other to secure a job, job consciousness instead of class consciousness. How pathetic to see a worker such up to the boss so he or she retains their job while another gets canned due to global outsourcing. It is happening every day.

If that condition doesn’t change, forget about the improvement of workers’ lot. I know because it happened to me more than once–I didn’t suck up to the boss. I personally know a worker who was involved in the formation of the Teamsters–the way they were then, not today. Now, that union stoops to fighting other unions for control shoveling more money in the pockets of the union leaders, “labor merchant,” “labor faker.”

When workers are ready to cut to the chase I will be there but not before. In the meantime, I am gone fishing.

Until something better comes up, I will offer my suggestion for a workers’ organization here:

http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html

Don

However, those of us living in the imperialist countries (the looters), first need to agree on a minimum anti-imperialist platform! This immoral/illegal/unethical/ destructive practice of stealing the non-imperialist nations’ human and material wealth must stop fast! Imperialism must be classified as crime against humanity!

However, a number of economists agree that market forces do not always efficiently allocate resources, nor through the decisions of participants reflect societal values and preferences.

Even moreso in a world of multi-national corporations that do not have an intimate connection with the society/community within which they operate.
Working to maximise the wealth of the shareholders (and upper management – often the same thing), often results in decisions with deleterious effects for the wider society. The current system places too much emphasis on monetary wealth, and insufficient on non-monetary forms.

This is where government must step in, to correct for the failure of the markets to adequately consider social costs and long-term social well-being.
If you want (extreme) examples of what happens when governments bow to the matket, look at Union Carbide in India, and Royal Dutch Shell in Nigeria.
A responsible government is obliged to act on the peoples behalf to regulate to protect the society (and its values) that it represents. The real question is – how much is enough? Where does government draw the line in regulations.
My personal view – government should be creating the regulatory framework (reflecting the values of society on a macro scale). But the society itself should take responsibility for encouraging agreed values on a more intimate level – moral, behavioural etc.

I am intrigued by a number of comments you have made here (and elsewhere), implying some alternatives. Of particular interest is the comparison of the development of scientific theory with the development of economic/social theory.

I wonder if you have time to write and submit an article with more substance (though if course it would of necessity still be an overview) of an alternative (complex) economic/social model (after all, our economy and our behaviour are inextricably linked).

Be it communism or capitalism, or any other -ism you want to tag onto something – there is no perfect system. There is no cure.

I think the contradiction lies in the human condition, and not in the system. That is to say, human beings are inherently social creatures, we are drawn to living in socities and groups – yet, our behavior is remarkably antisocial. The whole “gimme, gimme, gimme” of capitalism is a good example, but communism has its own pitfalls, a great deal of them in fact.

I personally subscribe to Hobbes theory of “the war of all against all”. Not because I wish it that way, but to me – it just seems that way.

Yes he could, he chose not to. Capitalism is about competition. Innovation is the currency of competition hence science and technology are the left and right arms of capitalism.

“capitalism in its last throes, rotting internally, irrational and increasingly insane, is now armed with doomsday weapons and has created the technology to create the Orwellian state.”

Actually it’s statism not capitalism thats is rotting internally. As the Federal Government runs more and more of people’s lives, the economy and social/moral agendas. the inefficiency with which this onslaught of socialism has shown for is the Orwellian state, just like in the Soviet Union, North Korea, China and Cuba

“Capitalism depends on profits to live and the appetite for those profits simply cannot be satisfied!”

Incorrect. Capitalism is the drive to provide the best goods at the lowest price. In essence to be driven to do the best you can.

Socialism promotes sloth, mediocrity and inefficiency since the rewards for you efforts are stolen from you by the state

“For example U.S. oil companies have realized world record profits every quarter for the past several years yet Big Oil must continue to raise the price of gas.”

Incorrect. The profits are there becuase the state subsidizes them with the money of the people. The profits are generated by socialist business welfare. If capitalism and true free markets were put in place, then these profits would be washed away since the safety net of State subsidies would be removed.

“Today, even the largest corporations, like General Motors, Nissan and Renault, seek the comfort of each other’s arms. They will only survive in combination as wealth is consolidated in fewer and fewer entities!”

Incorrect. They are coming together becuase of the over-regulation and economic interference of the state.

Because the state will not let these businesses die as they would under capitalism, they are surviving the only way the State will let them .. mergers.

“But wars for resources, higher commodities prices and mega-mergers are only putting off the day of reckoning for capitalism. ”

The only day of reckoning is the American empire cast in the same mold as the Soviet empire. The Soviets fell by bankrupting themselves becuase socialism crushed their economy. The US is falling to the same disease as the Soviet system.

“The process is steadily reshaping ours into a subsistence-wage service economy. The jobs of elite industrial workers, from auto and steelworkers to airline pilots, are disappearing across the country along with their health benefits and pensions.”

Because the welfare State mandates ridiculous economic penalties and over-regulation as it tries to control every aspect of American society instead of letting the citizens think and work for themselves.

“Slaves cannot buy the products they produce.”

Agreed, one only has to see North Korea and China before CHina adopted -quasi-capitalism. Once China adopted some capitalistic practices, a new middle-calls was born. The freedom for an INDIVIDUAL to manage their destiny can bear greater rewards then the over-regulation of a social state ever could.

The rest of the diatribe is irrelevant(and long) in the face of the failures of socialism throughout history.

Socialism does not work. The welfare state does not work and the warfare state does not work

Free markets, sound money, a small limited government whose only involvement should be the preservation of individual liberty, and DEFENSE national defense and the elimination of group-think ideology is the only successful equation to a healthy and happy state

I posted a comment on Bill Moyers Journal offering:

Poll: Are Unions Over?

Answer our poll question, then debate the topic below.

748 total votes 87% voted no to the question and 12% voted yes

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/06/poll_are_unions_over.html

Here is my comment:

Labor union demise.

There is almost always one key element omitted when discussing the union question! Before getting into that, the air would be cleared if set and distinguishable terminology is used. To start off, since capitalism is generally accepted as being the best of all possible systems, it follows that there must be a capitalist class, proceeding from that there must be capitalists who belong to that class. Since that class owns the means of production and it is a tiny minority of the population, then the majority are compelled to work for the capitalists. The majority being workers, it follows that they must belong to the working class. Therefore exists a class divided society.

Now, back to the key omitted element. We had, right here in Minneapolis, the creation of a union in the early 1930’s. Who created it? Workers! Well, if you go by the vague jargon in common usage today, you might miss their existence as workers; we are bombarded day after day with reports on consumers and their confidence. Nothing about workers and what they feel about their plight. That was not the case with the union referred to. It was the Teamsters, and they were not subjected to the ceaseless vague jargon in prevalent usage today, identifying them as “consumers,” with their main concern being whether they had “consumer confidence” enough to go to the store to buy the necessities for life. They knew that they belonged to the working class and they knew that their interest was in opposition to that of the capitalist class. They knew that they were not getting enough pay to buy the necessities for life needed by them and their wives and children. They were class conscious. They didn’t need anyone to tell them what to do. On their own part, they had the gumption to organize and form a union. That in spite of the actual fire power used against them as it was done all over the United States by the proud back shooters (themselves being members of the working class, mind you) who dutifully served the capitalist class, but that is another part of the story.

It didn’t take long for the capitalist class, since direct force including the “blacklist,” was ineffective. It only riled up workers more and besides, of most importance, it interfered with production and the making of profit. What to do about it? Eureka! We don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalists came up with the panacea, what matters is that it solved the problem, production went on uninterrupted, and profits kept rolling in. It was the creation of the pro capitalist union leader, what some have referred to as the “labor merchant” or the “labor faker.” He says to the workers, “Your busy doing your job and strikes always stop your pay and you get behind on your rent and grocery bill. Let me save you the misery, I will handle the boss.” Gradually with the compliance of the labor faker, the vague jargon sets into what we have today, “consumers” and “consumer confidence.” Capitalist class, what? Working class, what? Class consciousness, what?

It didn’t take a “Hitler” to wreck the unions in the US, as was done in Germany. Calmly and persistently, with an occasional ranting and raving against the boss of course, it was the pro capitalist union leader, the “labor merchant,” the “labor faker” who performed the dastardly deed. During all this time, with the assistance of union labor for its operation, the media and the educational system has been aiding and abetting the obscuring of workers’ class consciousness. Until finally, labor faker union leaders have rendered themselves into an endangered species. The top ones, of course, having seen to it to become virtual capitalists themselves before their demise.

From capitalist use of force against the working class, to guile by using the labor faker to increase profits, comes the next obstacle to increasing profits, the Constitution of the United State. What now? Eureka! Again, we don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalist came up with the replacement panacea, all that matters is that its working, profits are going up by leaps and bounds. Go to a country with a huge working class that is largely unemployed or marginally employed and best of all, a country with a Constitution not fit to wipe your, you know what, with–China. For the promise of a couple of fish heads and a bowl of rice a day, Mao roused the starving peasants to the glory of the Korean War human slaughterhouse. Now, for not much more, the Chinese workers submit to slaving away until they are driven into the ground, while the Chinese ruling class, once considered by the US to be tyrants behind the bamboo curtain, hell bent on spreading communism, serve as the new labor merchant to US capitalism.

Just as did our home grown labor merchant, the Chinese replacement makes sure to get a cut out of the action to become a well heeled virtual capitalist. The hitch is, just as our home grown labor merchant helped bring about its own endangered species status so will the Chinese labor merchant despot. Just how long is the scheme of merchandise streaming into the US from China, with American workers’ payment continually being lowered, going to last? Just how long is the consumers’ consumer confidence going to be sustained to remove the glut of merchandise on store selves, so they can be refilled again and again, while the caravan of super container ships from China come streaming day after day into the California docks to be unloaded?

Class conscious unions, anyone? Return of workers having the gumption to organize, form and operate unions by their own initiative, anyone? Or do we just sit in front of the boob tube and wait for the inevitable? Another breed of labor merchant, maybe!
During all this time, the merchant in question does not sell to the highest bidder as was done with the chattel slave on the auction block. He or she sells to the lowest bid of each capitalist concern, the commodity labor power. The labor merchant shill is on the take, getting paid on the side for offering the work time of workers at the lowest possible hourly pay. Not only is the labor merchant on the take with the capitalist class, he or she leeches union dues from workers to perform such a dastardly deed. Labor time is merchandise, a commodity, an investment of capital by the capitalist class. Right now that capital (commodity) is cheapest in China.

Here is one class conscious union that doesn’t beat around the bush. But that is hardly enough for the total working class, but a start.

http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html

Max
PS: stop being afraid of the word “Socialism”. More importantly, stop being afraid of the word REVOLUTION. Even if it’s kind of corny right now.

And Jaimie gave us an example of what you call her incisive comments, ” Though I certainly empathize why you or any normal person would dismiss this “progressive place” for its poorly thought out political and social theories.
Marx’s theories and thoughts deserve sincere study.

Sadly, many who tout them these days lack the intelligence or are too lazy to think for themselves and actually delve into what has become of communist regimes and why.”

revbev:

Do you see the hypocrisy in your words as you both arrogantly shame the left? We do not support the jailing of those who disagree with us or the Bush administration. We did not eliminate habeas corpus or lobby for torture of those we lock up, fail to charge, and then eventually release for no reason. We do not harass and murder journalists who would investigate and report Bush administration war crimes.

It won’t ever be the left putting anyone in a gulag for disagreeing. That’s crazy.

It frightens me that you really believe what you say. Could you accept for a day that you are misinformed and really investigate and read the information available from somewhere other than the mainstream press? It is not “the liberal press.” It is corporate propaganda controlled by people who love to keep us disagreeing. Can’t you see their purpose? They want us to mistrust each other so we don’t look at them and the Bush administration who are involved in destroying our democracy, our Constitution that we love and want to preserve. We are not each other’s enemies. Please think about this. Thanks.

Let’s cut through the propaganda and ideology and look for the content. Malcolm Martin is talking about socialism in the real Marxist sense: the working class organized as the ruling class. The vast majority ruling in the interests of the vast majority. This is different than a Stalinist bureaucracy, a minority ruling in the interest of a minority, whether or not people have used the same words to describe both. The fact that George Bush uses the word “democracy” to cover for his crimes of imperialism does not mean that democracy should be discarded. Nor should the fact that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others used the word “socialism” as cover for theirs.

In the last year of his life, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. specifically argued that: “The evils of capitalism and militarism are as great as the evils of racism.” At the time of his assassination he was attempting “to bring the social change movements through from their early and now inadequate protest phase to a stage of massive, active, nonviolent resistance to the evils of…a system where some people live in superfluous, inordinate wealth while others live in abject, deadening poverty.” King was very openly questioning the effectiveness of past tactics for Black liberation. Shortly before his assassination, he declared: “For years I labored with the idea of reforming the existing institutions…, a little change here, a little change there. Now I feel quite differently. I think you’ve got to have a reconstruction of the whole society.”

In his last year, Malcolm X was also increasingly anti-capitalist. In May, 1964 Malcolm X argued that “you can’t have capitalism without racism.” During a December, 1964 speech in Harlem, Malcolm X, again, clearly articulated what he thought about capitalism. Declaring: “You show me a capitalist, I’ll show you a bloodsucker,” Malcolm X urged the Black liberation movement to reject capitalism.

The result of knowing nothing about economic history–but having an eye for rewriting history based on 21st century PC thinking.

I pity your students. More importantly, I pity our future with ‘intellectuals’ such as this teaching our children. What a fine educational system we have with “warriors” of socialism in the classroom.

Marxist philosophy has been dead for sometime, although it is fashionable in some academic circles to espouse it. Thank God, fashion tends to be a fad. Be interesting to see what fad this quack will grab hold of next. Maybe he’ll take Marxist philosophy with its premise that goes against human nature to its logical conclusion and become a nihilist.

Though I certainly empathize why you or any normal person would dismiss this “progressive place” for its poorly thought out political and social theories.
Marx’s theories and thoughts deserve sincere study.

Sadly, many who tout them these days lack the intelligence or are too lazy to think for themselves and actually delve into what has become of communist regimes and why.

I, myself, have spent time in Cuba. It’s a fascinating place, full of contradictions. The people have an amazing spirit. All this spite of a really unfortunate regime. It certainly doesn’t help that the US has blockaded the place for so many years.

Well here’s how:

- free, transparent, public elections and a civil bureaucracy disinclined to corruption

-a civil, peaceful society that upholds law and order, discourages malfeasance, encourages investment both both small and large

- a free market economy, open to trade

- separation of judiciary and religion. Basic human rights for all.

- freedom of the press and individual liberties

- equal access to education, health services.

- juried academia

How’s that for trolling?