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	<title>Comments on: The Kucinich Question</title>
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	<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
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		<title>By: Tony Baltic</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-9798</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Baltic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-9798</guid>
		<description>Moderation?  We need more anger.  Taser this.  Fuck moderation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moderation?  We need more anger.  Taser this.  Fuck moderation.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Baltic</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-9797</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Baltic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-9797</guid>
		<description>What the fuck is wrong with you people (most of you anyway).  Kucinich has given us the chance to vote for sanity in a nuclear tipped and ecologically wounded  world.  Every other candidate is insane.  So what are you going to do?  So many of these posts are stunning in their ignorance.  We don&#039;t have time to build a third party.  We have to do things to rescue the earth NOW.  If Dems don&#039;t vote for K, it just proves to me that they have really bought into the imperialism and the exceptualism that has defined this country from the very beginning.  Only now this national pathology is in its final stage.  Maybe K won&#039;t be able to help us stop the apocalypse. But his election would certainly give humanity a huge opportunity if we have any chance at all.  Fuck it.  I don&#039;t even know why I care anymore.  We&#039;re doomed.  So i&#039;m just going to drift away in beer and rock-n-roll.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What the fuck is wrong with you people (most of you anyway).  Kucinich has given us the chance to vote for sanity in a nuclear tipped and ecologically wounded  world.  Every other candidate is insane.  So what are you going to do?  So many of these posts are stunning in their ignorance.  We don&#8217;t have time to build a third party.  We have to do things to rescue the earth NOW.  If Dems don&#8217;t vote for K, it just proves to me that they have really bought into the imperialism and the exceptualism that has defined this country from the very beginning.  Only now this national pathology is in its final stage.  Maybe K won&#8217;t be able to help us stop the apocalypse. But his election would certainly give humanity a huge opportunity if we have any chance at all.  Fuck it.  I don&#8217;t even know why I care anymore.  We&#8217;re doomed.  So i&#8217;m just going to drift away in beer and rock-n-roll.</p>
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		<title>By: Timber</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7152</link>
		<dc:creator>Timber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 00:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7152</guid>
		<description>Steve--it&#039;s a red herring to blame Nader for Gore&#039;s 2000 loss.  Setting aside a completely ham-handed campaign run by DLC stooges, more Democrats voted for BUSH than for Nader.  No one likes to bring that up.

When Democrats stop voting for Republicans in the name of  &quot;faith,&quot; &quot;national security,&quot; &quot;economic growth,&quot; or any other amoral aspect of nationalistic narcissism, THEN they can start whining about the Naders and other challengers from the left.  Until then, they&#039;re just trying to distract from the very real and demonstrable fact that they are more in agreement with the party of George W. Bush than they are with the left.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve&#8211;it&#8217;s a red herring to blame Nader for Gore&#8217;s 2000 loss.  Setting aside a completely ham-handed campaign run by DLC stooges, more Democrats voted for BUSH than for Nader.  No one likes to bring that up.</p>
<p>When Democrats stop voting for Republicans in the name of  &#8220;faith,&#8221; &#8220;national security,&#8221; &#8220;economic growth,&#8221; or any other amoral aspect of nationalistic narcissism, THEN they can start whining about the Naders and other challengers from the left.  Until then, they&#8217;re just trying to distract from the very real and demonstrable fact that they are more in agreement with the party of George W. Bush than they are with the left.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7150</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7150</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know, Steve.   Your indisputably valid points don&#039;t add up to me to anything but: do nothing and hope.  And hope for what?  That the Chipmunk will attack Iran?

Beginning your piece, I thought, &quot;Well, 2007 is not 2000.&quot;   Then I thought, &quot;2007 is not 2004.&quot;   Then, why compare Wallace, Anderson, and Perot with a possible Kucinich, now?   Now is two thousand and seven, or eight to be exact.  And why say, &quot;Simply announcing a third party run without...a base&quot; will be a loser? -- would we be &quot;simply announcing,&quot; and is it like it&#039;s  always been in past years, when third parties got stomped?  

Maybe my not having followed the &quot;sectarian battles within the (Green Party) organization described elsewhere on this website,&quot; like you have, gives me a little less historical-intellectual perspective, and that&#039;s a good thing.  I don&#039;t see any reason to give Kucinich or any of his potential supporters a lot of intellectual hooey based on past history (I love THAT EXPRESSION), when for crying out loud, the man has enough sense to realize he might get shot.  Or do you think the neocons have turned everything else in the country back, but haven&#039;t restored the good ole days of American Presidential politics, when national elections without assassinations were like Halloween without ghouls?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know, Steve.   Your indisputably valid points don&#8217;t add up to me to anything but: do nothing and hope.  And hope for what?  That the Chipmunk will attack Iran?</p>
<p>Beginning your piece, I thought, &#8220;Well, 2007 is not 2000.&#8221;   Then I thought, &#8220;2007 is not 2004.&#8221;   Then, why compare Wallace, Anderson, and Perot with a possible Kucinich, now?   Now is two thousand and seven, or eight to be exact.  And why say, &#8220;Simply announcing a third party run without&#8230;a base&#8221; will be a loser? &#8212; would we be &#8220;simply announcing,&#8221; and is it like it&#8217;s  always been in past years, when third parties got stomped?  </p>
<p>Maybe my not having followed the &#8220;sectarian battles within the (Green Party) organization described elsewhere on this website,&#8221; like you have, gives me a little less historical-intellectual perspective, and that&#8217;s a good thing.  I don&#8217;t see any reason to give Kucinich or any of his potential supporters a lot of intellectual hooey based on past history (I love THAT EXPRESSION), when for crying out loud, the man has enough sense to realize he might get shot.  Or do you think the neocons have turned everything else in the country back, but haven&#8217;t restored the good ole days of American Presidential politics, when national elections without assassinations were like Halloween without ghouls?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7107</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 22:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7107</guid>
		<description>Those who urge  Kucinich or someone to lead a third party run from the left need to explain why it would turn out differently than Nader in 2000.  To review--many left/liberals in 2000 embraced Nader, ignoring his lengthy history of xenophobia and hostility to gender politics.  Come election day, he attained 2.7% of the vote--barely half of the way to the 5% that would have allowed him to attain federal matching funds.  The basic constituencies of the left--African Americans, union members, supporters of social movements like abortion rights and gay rights--avoided him, often voting for him in even smaller numbers than the general public (all of theses groups see a very clear difference between Republican and Democratic administrations, notwithstanding the obvious failings of the latter).  His performance compared very unfavorably to such third party candidates as George Wallace, John Anderson, and Ross Perot.  This very modest electoral achievement was magnified by the fact that a plausible case could be made that without Nader Gore would have won both Florida and New Hampshire, and hence the national election (if this had not been the case--if Bush or Gore had won by a landslide--Nader&#039;s candidacy would probably be trivia along the lines of Barry &#039;populist party&#039; Commoner).  Rather than embracing this fact, Nader&#039;s followers have fled from it.  The Green Party now appears to be more or less completely irrelevant (difficult to say from my perch in North Carolina, since even in Nader&#039;s heyday it was a joke here), judging from the sectarian battles within the organization described elsewhere on this website.  Kucinich in 2004 inspired some of the same people who supported Nader in 2000.  Kucinich came nowhere near attaining enough delegates to have any cards to play at the convention.  This time around, he appears to have much less support.  Jackson in 1984, and especially 1988, was a much more serious candidate who attracted considerable union-member support.  However, the &#039;rainbow coalition&#039; was seriously marred by the cult of personality around Jackson.   
      Even third party candidates with a much broader appeal than Nader, i.e. Perot, have difficulty becoming an enduring force in American politics.  That is because the US&#039; electoral institutions are heavily weighted against the emergence of third parties.  Strangely, almost no one on the left in the US ever seems to talk much about the prospect of transforming them so that would be otherwise.  That would require transforming the constitution of the US, a tall order to be sure, but more plausible than a third party Presidency from the left.
      The left needs to build power outside the electoral arena.  Either win over existing unions, churches, social movement organizations, etc or create our own.  Electoral strategy has to be made through something like a democratic process within that left-base, which, as I&#039;ve said, doesn&#039;t really exist right now.  Simply announcing a third party run without such a base will again do little more than antagonize some of the left-liberals (especially many within the African American community and union members) who could plausibly be allies in a more serious struggle, or, more likely, will be too marginal to offend anyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those who urge  Kucinich or someone to lead a third party run from the left need to explain why it would turn out differently than Nader in 2000.  To review&#8211;many left/liberals in 2000 embraced Nader, ignoring his lengthy history of xenophobia and hostility to gender politics.  Come election day, he attained 2.7% of the vote&#8211;barely half of the way to the 5% that would have allowed him to attain federal matching funds.  The basic constituencies of the left&#8211;African Americans, union members, supporters of social movements like abortion rights and gay rights&#8211;avoided him, often voting for him in even smaller numbers than the general public (all of theses groups see a very clear difference between Republican and Democratic administrations, notwithstanding the obvious failings of the latter).  His performance compared very unfavorably to such third party candidates as George Wallace, John Anderson, and Ross Perot.  This very modest electoral achievement was magnified by the fact that a plausible case could be made that without Nader Gore would have won both Florida and New Hampshire, and hence the national election (if this had not been the case&#8211;if Bush or Gore had won by a landslide&#8211;Nader&#8217;s candidacy would probably be trivia along the lines of Barry &#8216;populist party&#8217; Commoner).  Rather than embracing this fact, Nader&#8217;s followers have fled from it.  The Green Party now appears to be more or less completely irrelevant (difficult to say from my perch in North Carolina, since even in Nader&#8217;s heyday it was a joke here), judging from the sectarian battles within the organization described elsewhere on this website.  Kucinich in 2004 inspired some of the same people who supported Nader in 2000.  Kucinich came nowhere near attaining enough delegates to have any cards to play at the convention.  This time around, he appears to have much less support.  Jackson in 1984, and especially 1988, was a much more serious candidate who attracted considerable union-member support.  However, the &#8216;rainbow coalition&#8217; was seriously marred by the cult of personality around Jackson.<br />
      Even third party candidates with a much broader appeal than Nader, i.e. Perot, have difficulty becoming an enduring force in American politics.  That is because the US&#8217; electoral institutions are heavily weighted against the emergence of third parties.  Strangely, almost no one on the left in the US ever seems to talk much about the prospect of transforming them so that would be otherwise.  That would require transforming the constitution of the US, a tall order to be sure, but more plausible than a third party Presidency from the left.<br />
      The left needs to build power outside the electoral arena.  Either win over existing unions, churches, social movement organizations, etc or create our own.  Electoral strategy has to be made through something like a democratic process within that left-base, which, as I&#8217;ve said, doesn&#8217;t really exist right now.  Simply announcing a third party run without such a base will again do little more than antagonize some of the left-liberals (especially many within the African American community and union members) who could plausibly be allies in a more serious struggle, or, more likely, will be too marginal to offend anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7101</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 20:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7101</guid>
		<description>Why would Kucinich ever campaign as a candidate who wants to end capitalism?

He&#039;s running on Peace. Not anti-war. He&#039;s pretty clear. In fact he&#039;s the clearest thinker in the race bar none.

He provides an alternative to war, and alternatives to preditory capitalism not by being anti- to satisfy a handful of people who don&#039;t even vote. He understands that economic solutions come from a new model of sustainability. 

Free trade is a problem; fundamentalism of the market per corporate globalization is the problem. We have models that can replace this pathology. Kucinich has read and embraces Henry George - Progress and Poverty. He understands what creates poverty and what can change that. He knows how cooperative business models are proven for centuries as alternatives to the monolithic corporate models. Cooperatives are human-scaled and can readily service social services, quality food, alternative energy, and health care as well as manufacturing sectors.  That are the answer to the TINAists.

As far as his run for the Pres. of USA, it&#039;s futile. He should not be running on the war party. Both parties are anachronistic. They will not change, but they hold incredible power.

Kucinich has provided explicit and implict signs that he understands this but can&#039;t seem to get off the notion that he can change the conversation and perhaps sneak by as a darkhorse. Ah, even if possible, then what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would Kucinich ever campaign as a candidate who wants to end capitalism?</p>
<p>He&#8217;s running on Peace. Not anti-war. He&#8217;s pretty clear. In fact he&#8217;s the clearest thinker in the race bar none.</p>
<p>He provides an alternative to war, and alternatives to preditory capitalism not by being anti- to satisfy a handful of people who don&#8217;t even vote. He understands that economic solutions come from a new model of sustainability. </p>
<p>Free trade is a problem; fundamentalism of the market per corporate globalization is the problem. We have models that can replace this pathology. Kucinich has read and embraces Henry George &#8211; Progress and Poverty. He understands what creates poverty and what can change that. He knows how cooperative business models are proven for centuries as alternatives to the monolithic corporate models. Cooperatives are human-scaled and can readily service social services, quality food, alternative energy, and health care as well as manufacturing sectors.  That are the answer to the TINAists.</p>
<p>As far as his run for the Pres. of USA, it&#8217;s futile. He should not be running on the war party. Both parties are anachronistic. They will not change, but they hold incredible power.</p>
<p>Kucinich has provided explicit and implict signs that he understands this but can&#8217;t seem to get off the notion that he can change the conversation and perhaps sneak by as a darkhorse. Ah, even if possible, then what?</p>
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		<title>By: Hue Longer</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7059</link>
		<dc:creator>Hue Longer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 04:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7059</guid>
		<description>good point on Paul, David

I see many a Republican presented with the inescapable truth of their party go to Paul as a final bastion ...so I am at least partly glad that people who never used to think for themselves are at least forced to consider unimaginable reality when singing praises for Paul.  Maybe it&#039;s an introduction into things they thought only reserved for &quot;left wing Commie whacko&#039;s&quot; which will lead them to where you stand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good point on Paul, David</p>
<p>I see many a Republican presented with the inescapable truth of their party go to Paul as a final bastion &#8230;so I am at least partly glad that people who never used to think for themselves are at least forced to consider unimaginable reality when singing praises for Paul.  Maybe it&#8217;s an introduction into things they thought only reserved for &#8220;left wing Commie whacko&#8217;s&#8221; which will lead them to where you stand.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gaines</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7055</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gaines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 01:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7055</guid>
		<description>I admire everything about Kucinich except his peculiar refusal to (1) debate his opponents when he runs for reelection back home, which I&#039;m afraid makes him sound laughably hypocritical when he demands to be included in presidential debates, (2) explain his votes in Congress, and (3) stand up to the Kerry camp in 2004 when he embarrassed his delegates by folding up like a house of cards just before the convention.

I agree with the various analyses that express bewilderment as to why he stays in the Democratic Party.

Speaking of bewilderment, an earlier comment here caught my eye....what is with these people who pop up all over the internet and seem to be progressive to one degree or another, ot at least pretty liberal, and then promote Ron Paul as some kind of savior for the left?

WTF?  Folks, I am a recovering libertarian. I drank the capitalist Kool-Aid for years in the 1970&#039;s. I voted for Ron Paul when he was the 1988 LP candidate for president. Hello.......this guy wants to abolish all federal cabinet departments except for defense......he wants to abolish the FDA, OSHA, the minimum wage, NHTSA, the FAA......shall I go on?  He wants to bring back the gold standard.  He is, as is every libertarian, an almost mystically fanatical proponent of the &quot;free market.&quot;  He, like every libertarian, looks at Milton Friedman the way Mormons look at Joseph Smith.

Being against the war and against NAFTA isn&#039;t enough.  Why on earth would the person I described above appeal to anybody even remotely progressive/liberal?

DG</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admire everything about Kucinich except his peculiar refusal to (1) debate his opponents when he runs for reelection back home, which I&#8217;m afraid makes him sound laughably hypocritical when he demands to be included in presidential debates, (2) explain his votes in Congress, and (3) stand up to the Kerry camp in 2004 when he embarrassed his delegates by folding up like a house of cards just before the convention.</p>
<p>I agree with the various analyses that express bewilderment as to why he stays in the Democratic Party.</p>
<p>Speaking of bewilderment, an earlier comment here caught my eye&#8230;.what is with these people who pop up all over the internet and seem to be progressive to one degree or another, ot at least pretty liberal, and then promote Ron Paul as some kind of savior for the left?</p>
<p>WTF?  Folks, I am a recovering libertarian. I drank the capitalist Kool-Aid for years in the 1970&#8217;s. I voted for Ron Paul when he was the 1988 LP candidate for president. Hello&#8230;&#8230;.this guy wants to abolish all federal cabinet departments except for defense&#8230;&#8230;he wants to abolish the FDA, OSHA, the minimum wage, NHTSA, the FAA&#8230;&#8230;shall I go on?  He wants to bring back the gold standard.  He is, as is every libertarian, an almost mystically fanatical proponent of the &#8220;free market.&#8221;  He, like every libertarian, looks at Milton Friedman the way Mormons look at Joseph Smith.</p>
<p>Being against the war and against NAFTA isn&#8217;t enough.  Why on earth would the person I described above appeal to anybody even remotely progressive/liberal?</p>
<p>DG</p>
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		<title>By: John Caruso</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7043</link>
		<dc:creator>John Caruso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 22:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7043</guid>
		<description>I wrote up some very similar thoughts here:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.distantocean.com/2007/08/go-green-dennis.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.distantocean.com/2007/08/go-green-dennis.html&lt;/a&gt;

An excerpt:

----------------------------------

As things stand now, Kucinich&#039;s main function on the national stage is to provide a fig leaf for the Democrats on their left flank, and to sap the energies of progressives by giving them a safe establishment figure on whom to focus their time and effort.  By continuing to be a token progressive in a party full of utterly compromised corporate centrists, he&#039;s only undermining his own causes and enervating his natural allies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote up some very similar thoughts here:<br />
<a href="http://www.distantocean.com/2007/08/go-green-dennis.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.distantocean.com/2007/08/go-green-dennis.html</a></p>
<p>An excerpt:</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>As things stand now, Kucinich&#8217;s main function on the national stage is to provide a fig leaf for the Democrats on their left flank, and to sap the energies of progressives by giving them a safe establishment figure on whom to focus their time and effort.  By continuing to be a token progressive in a party full of utterly compromised corporate centrists, he&#8217;s only undermining his own causes and enervating his natural allies.</p>
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		<title>By: gerald spezio</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7020</link>
		<dc:creator>gerald spezio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7020</guid>
		<description>Oh, Kucinich is a veggie guy. 
I did not know this.
That is nice, very nice.
No schlacthausen  for Kucinich.
And there you have it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, Kucinich is a veggie guy.<br />
I did not know this.<br />
That is nice, very nice.<br />
No schlacthausen  for Kucinich.<br />
And there you have it.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7011</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 04:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7011</guid>
		<description>Tip for Sharon: Read the World Socialist Web Site at www.wsws.org. For many years now, the World Socialist Web Site has been calling Kucinich a fraud who plays a key roll in delivering progressives to the Democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tip for Sharon: Read the World Socialist Web Site at <a href="http://www.wsws.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.wsws.org</a>. For many years now, the World Socialist Web Site has been calling Kucinich a fraud who plays a key roll in delivering progressives to the Democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7002</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 02:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-7002</guid>
		<description>Mark, good point. In fact, a profound point. Dennis is obviously the only truly civilized human being of the whole lot of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, good point. In fact, a profound point. Dennis is obviously the only truly civilized human being of the whole lot of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6985</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6985</guid>
		<description>Art Rymer.   My read on Ms. Smith is different from yours.  She&#039;s holding open the possibility that K. will not only turn his back on the Dems but also be the candidate of a third-party challenge; and that challenge, to have a snowball&#039;s chance of winning, simply cannot stand for the destruction of capitalism.  True, K&#039;s principles are not opposed to capitalism.   (I think you&#039;d have a harder case with K&#039;s principles not being opposed to &quot;imperialism&quot;.)   But what are you gonna do?  

In my opinion, &quot;socialism&quot; has no more been tried in modern conditions than Communism or Christianity, to throw out a couple of C-words.  And I can&#039;t imagine anyone arguing seriously that the forms of (nation-sized) mixed-socialist-capitalist things we&#039;ve seen have more than extremely tenously embodied anti-capitalist principles. 

To keep a Kucinich-option open is simply good sense.  Because with only a slight turn of the  kaleidoscope -- like a launch against Iran -- the issue could, could become survival, and not good sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art Rymer.   My read on Ms. Smith is different from yours.  She&#8217;s holding open the possibility that K. will not only turn his back on the Dems but also be the candidate of a third-party challenge; and that challenge, to have a snowball&#8217;s chance of winning, simply cannot stand for the destruction of capitalism.  True, K&#8217;s principles are not opposed to capitalism.   (I think you&#8217;d have a harder case with K&#8217;s principles not being opposed to &#8220;imperialism&#8221;.)   But what are you gonna do?  </p>
<p>In my opinion, &#8220;socialism&#8221; has no more been tried in modern conditions than Communism or Christianity, to throw out a couple of C-words.  And I can&#8217;t imagine anyone arguing seriously that the forms of (nation-sized) mixed-socialist-capitalist things we&#8217;ve seen have more than extremely tenously embodied anti-capitalist principles. </p>
<p>To keep a Kucinich-option open is simply good sense.  Because with only a slight turn of the  kaleidoscope &#8212; like a launch against Iran &#8212; the issue could, could become survival, and not good sense.</p>
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		<title>By: corylus</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6979</link>
		<dc:creator>corylus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6979</guid>
		<description>Ah, sleepy dreamers, you all seem to believe that the American electoral system is something (including &quot;worth saving&quot;) that it isn&#039;t.  It most surely is about continuing the delusion of democracy, when democracy will never be dictated from the top down.  It is definitely about containing the diverstiy of people into cleverly designed ideological boxes, the better to rent asunder the myriad needs of people and our environment.  Above all, electoral politics is driven by corporate Machiavellianism, letting the masses battle over the scraps of its capitalistic waste.  No candidate worth voting for would ever run for state- or federal-level office -- the only leaders we need are those who refuse to participate in the charade, and work to bring down capitalism and its fascist network of government and corporations.  American politics are antithetical to democracy and the needs of humanity and the environment upon which we depend.  Participating in the grand scheme of American politics, including voting, perpetuates the grand lie that we have a choice.  Start cutting holes in your boxes, people!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, sleepy dreamers, you all seem to believe that the American electoral system is something (including &#8220;worth saving&#8221;) that it isn&#8217;t.  It most surely is about continuing the delusion of democracy, when democracy will never be dictated from the top down.  It is definitely about containing the diverstiy of people into cleverly designed ideological boxes, the better to rent asunder the myriad needs of people and our environment.  Above all, electoral politics is driven by corporate Machiavellianism, letting the masses battle over the scraps of its capitalistic waste.  No candidate worth voting for would ever run for state- or federal-level office &#8212; the only leaders we need are those who refuse to participate in the charade, and work to bring down capitalism and its fascist network of government and corporations.  American politics are antithetical to democracy and the needs of humanity and the environment upon which we depend.  Participating in the grand scheme of American politics, including voting, perpetuates the grand lie that we have a choice.  Start cutting holes in your boxes, people!!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hawthorne</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6969</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Hawthorne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6969</guid>
		<description>Dennis Kucinich is also the only vegan candidate, avoiding the use and consumption of anything that comes from an animal.  Unlike most people, Kucinich is aware of the enormous suffering animals endure in order to provide humans with entertainment, clothing and fleeting gustatory pleasure.  His ethical stance on this issue puts him head and shoulders above the other candidates, in my view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis Kucinich is also the only vegan candidate, avoiding the use and consumption of anything that comes from an animal.  Unlike most people, Kucinich is aware of the enormous suffering animals endure in order to provide humans with entertainment, clothing and fleeting gustatory pleasure.  His ethical stance on this issue puts him head and shoulders above the other candidates, in my view.</p>
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		<title>By: Hue Longer</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6962</link>
		<dc:creator>Hue Longer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6962</guid>
		<description>sorry dissidents for my drunken rants and spelling</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry dissidents for my drunken rants and spelling</p>
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		<title>By: Hue Longer</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6961</link>
		<dc:creator>Hue Longer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6961</guid>
		<description>AND to stop falling victim to polorized bullshit...Hearing about the Blackwater cunt, Prince funding Nader to thwart Dems shouldn&#039;t make a reasonable person waver.  Penis over the gun should not be the conclusion of any person who sees themselves as brave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AND to stop falling victim to polorized bullshit&#8230;Hearing about the Blackwater cunt, Prince funding Nader to thwart Dems shouldn&#8217;t make a reasonable person waver.  Penis over the gun should not be the conclusion of any person who sees themselves as brave</p>
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		<title>By: art rymer</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6960</link>
		<dc:creator>art rymer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6960</guid>
		<description>You praise Kucinich&#039;s &quot;consistently principled stand&quot; on Iraq and other issues, and you imply that he should be against capitalism and that he doesn&#039;t belong in the imperialist Democratic Party. But go to his website, and you see that two of his main &quot;Issues&quot; topics are &quot;Strength through Peace&quot; and &quot;Saving Capitalism.&quot; He may be principled, but his principles aren&#039;t opposed to capitalism and imperialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You praise Kucinich&#8217;s &#8220;consistently principled stand&#8221; on Iraq and other issues, and you imply that he should be against capitalism and that he doesn&#8217;t belong in the imperialist Democratic Party. But go to his website, and you see that two of his main &#8220;Issues&#8221; topics are &#8220;Strength through Peace&#8221; and &#8220;Saving Capitalism.&#8221; He may be principled, but his principles aren&#8217;t opposed to capitalism and imperialism.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6946</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 04:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6946</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the information.  The discussion seems to be pretty interesting here.  On the one hand, I like Kucinich&#039;s ideas - and his principles - but the fact that he has held on to the hem of the corpse that was once the democratic party for so long concerns me greatly.  Personally, I think that we need many new parties, as a registered independent, I&#039;m all for the creation of an Independent Party.  Who knows, maybe such a group could form a coalition with the Greens, the Workers Party, and the _ _ _ _ _ _ Party?  The only way that we will get anywhere in the push to move this country forward is to bury the two brats who&#039;ve been hogging all of the votes for all these years; the ass and the elephant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the information.  The discussion seems to be pretty interesting here.  On the one hand, I like Kucinich&#8217;s ideas &#8211; and his principles &#8211; but the fact that he has held on to the hem of the corpse that was once the democratic party for so long concerns me greatly.  Personally, I think that we need many new parties, as a registered independent, I&#8217;m all for the creation of an Independent Party.  Who knows, maybe such a group could form a coalition with the Greens, the Workers Party, and the _ _ _ _ _ _ Party?  The only way that we will get anywhere in the push to move this country forward is to bury the two brats who&#8217;ve been hogging all of the votes for all these years; the ass and the elephant.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Wells</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6945</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 04:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/10/the-kucinich-factor-2/#comment-6945</guid>
		<description>One final coment: For the best DAILY coverage from an international, socialist perspective, please read: World Socialist Web Site at http://www.wsws.org.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One final coment: For the best DAILY coverage from an international, socialist perspective, please read: World Socialist Web Site at <a href="http://www.wsws.org." rel="nofollow">http://www.wsws.org.</a></p>
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