Comments on: “Human Beings of Another People” http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:13:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Jaap http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-16672 Jaap Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:45:41 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-16672 FYI: I believe the 'village files' were composed in the period 1940-1048, and not 1930-1948. Please check this link: http://71.18.226.238/final/en/journals/printer.php?aid=7175. It's an article by Pappe in which he writes: "By the late 1940s, the “archive” was almost complete.", while in his book he writes "By the late 1930s, the “archive” was almost complete.". The article contains details that indicate that the date in the book is a mistake. FYI: I believe the ‘village files’ were composed in the period 1940-1048, and not 1930-1948. Please check this link: http://71.18.226.238/final/en/journals/printer.php?aid=7175. It’s an article by Pappe in which he writes: “By the late 1940s, the “archive” was almost complete.”, while in his book he writes “By the late 1930s, the “archive” was almost complete.”. The article contains details that indicate that the date in the book is a mistake.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6078 gerald spezio Wed, 19 Sep 2007 02:05:29 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6078 Hatuxka, when a giant of an intellectual such as Chomsky becomes so emotionally bewildered by his commitment to his religious heritage that his judgment is maimed, we must confront what we are up against. I had an identical reaction to Steven Weinberg's unflinching public support of Israel's murderous behavior. Lesser mortals with much less brains such as Alan Dershowitz, Elliott Abrams, Doug Feith, Pipes, Podhorentz, Kristol, Lieberman, Wolfowitz, etc. are far far less amenable to factual and objective argument. How in the hell can we stop the murdering of innocent Palestinians and Iraqis if we can't count on a man like Chomsky to help identify the causes? As you know there are several articles on DV now by professed progressives and peace activists that slickly or even blindly evade the critical Israel connection. Whether cyber-typists for the Lobby, deluded new agers , or self deluded intellectuals like Chomsky: we are sailing into the rocks. It is the Palestinians and Iraqis who are suffering and dying. Our turn may come sooner than later Hatuxka, when a giant of an intellectual such as Chomsky becomes so emotionally bewildered by his commitment to his religious heritage that his judgment is maimed, we must confront what we are up against.
I had an identical reaction to Steven Weinberg’s unflinching public support of Israel’s murderous behavior.

Lesser mortals with much less brains such as Alan Dershowitz, Elliott Abrams, Doug Feith, Pipes, Podhorentz, Kristol, Lieberman, Wolfowitz, etc. are far far less amenable to factual and objective argument.

How in the hell can we stop the murdering of innocent Palestinians and Iraqis if we can’t count on a man like Chomsky to help identify the causes?

As you know there are several articles on DV now by professed progressives and peace activists that slickly or even blindly evade the critical Israel connection. Whether cyber-typists for the Lobby, deluded new agers , or self deluded intellectuals like Chomsky: we are sailing into the rocks.

It is the Palestinians and Iraqis who are suffering and dying. Our turn may come sooner than later

]]> By: Mulga Mumblebrain http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6071 Mulga Mumblebrain Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:24:20 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6071 Dear Adam; Indeed you are correct. Living under the terminal stage of capitalist self-destruction has led to the worst rising to the top in society and politics, almost everywhere. It was called 'kakistocracy' by the Greeks, rule by the worst people in society. I just consider it is particularly marked amongst Jews, where the voices of resistance to crimes against humanity undertaken in the cause of Jewish exceptionalism, have been cowed. The torrent of violent abuse that descends on the head of any Jew who questions Israel's crimes may explain, but does not excuse, this cowardice. And it will redound not necessarily to the benefit of Israelis if Jews continue to either close their eyes to, or covertly support Israel's multifarous crimes against human decency. Dear Adam; Indeed you are correct. Living under the terminal stage of capitalist self-destruction has led to the worst rising to the top in society and politics, almost everywhere. It was called ‘kakistocracy’ by the Greeks, rule by the worst people in society. I just consider it is particularly marked amongst Jews, where the voices of resistance to crimes against humanity undertaken in the cause of Jewish exceptionalism, have been cowed. The torrent of violent abuse that descends on the head of any Jew who questions Israel’s crimes may explain, but does not excuse, this cowardice. And it will redound not necessarily to the benefit of Israelis if Jews continue to either close their eyes to, or covertly support Israel’s multifarous crimes against human decency.

]]> By: Hatuxka http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6064 Hatuxka Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:17:41 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6064 G. S.- Re: Chomsky Two essays I found particularly revealing and convincing about where Chomsky is "coming from": http://www.leftcurve.org/LC29WebPages/Chomsky.html http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=144&num=21643 On the other matter of Avnery, that his ready acknowledgment of the crimes of Israel (while attempting to deflect attention from its apartheid nature) has earned him death threats from settlers is neither here nor there. Those who would be fanatically motivated to kill him would kill opponents of lower visibility who had done much less. That says more about how fanatical his opponents are than serving to balance or compensate for his spinning. I don't think when all the ranting is done about how this viewpoint vis a vis Avnery makes those holding it irrelevant, that he is any less compromised by the myths he perpetuates. Letting his disingenuousness slide (as with Chomsky's) is the kind of good politics that will move us from marginality to relevancy? Yes, that's been working so well, let's stay that course. G. S.-

Re: Chomsky
Two essays I found particularly revealing and convincing about where Chomsky is “coming from”:

http://www.leftcurve.org/LC29WebPages/Chomsky.html

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=144&num=21643

On the other matter of Avnery, that his ready acknowledgment of the crimes of Israel (while attempting to deflect attention from its apartheid nature) has earned him death threats from settlers is neither here nor there. Those who would be fanatically motivated to kill him would kill opponents of lower visibility who had done much less. That says more about how fanatical his opponents are than serving to balance or compensate for his spinning. I don’t think when all the ranting is done about how this viewpoint vis a vis Avnery makes those holding it irrelevant, that he is any less compromised by the myths he perpetuates. Letting his disingenuousness slide (as with Chomsky’s) is the kind of good politics that will move us from marginality to relevancy? Yes, that’s been working so well, let’s stay that course.

]]> By: Adam Goldsztajn http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6018 Adam Goldsztajn Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:25:25 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6018 Oh my god....Avnery is a Zionist?!?!....and he's a....two-stater!!! the shock....what are we to do?...I know....let's trash him, because we in the self-righteous north American rrrrrrevolutionary left are soooooo strong we don't need allies, we can basically pontificate with poems and skreeds against whomever, which will surely achieve more than actually doing something....like putting your life on the line and meeting Arafat in 1982....and when the settlers call for Avnery's assassination, who cares, right? cause's he's just the other side of the Zionist coin...a wonderful piece highlighting the path for eternal irrelevancy and marginality. as for Mulga Mumblebrain's comment-- "Jewish diaspora communities are now dominated by the worst amongst them." wtf? and what white-bread USA isn't dominated by the worst? the Asian-American community, what about "them"? or Indian-Americans...? Oh my god….Avnery is a Zionist?!?!….and he’s a….two-stater!!! the shock….what are we to do?…I know….let’s trash him, because we in the self-righteous north American rrrrrrevolutionary left are soooooo strong we don’t need allies, we can basically pontificate with poems and skreeds against whomever, which will surely achieve more than actually doing something….like putting your life on the line and meeting Arafat in 1982….and when the settlers call for Avnery’s assassination, who cares, right? cause’s he’s just the other side of the Zionist coin…a wonderful piece highlighting the path for eternal irrelevancy and marginality.

as for Mulga Mumblebrain’s comment– “Jewish diaspora communities are now dominated by the worst amongst them.” wtf? and what white-bread USA isn’t dominated by the worst? the Asian-American community, what about “them”? or Indian-Americans…?

]]> By: Mulga Mumblebrain http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6015 Mulga Mumblebrain Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:22:54 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6015 The concept of hasbara permeates the Western media entirely.Not surprising given the extent of Jewish, invariably Likudnick, ownership and the overwhelming presence of Jewish journalists, editors and opinion writers, once again invariably of the 'morally pure' Right. I am personally disinclined to attack the likes of Chomsky, whose work in outlining Israeli atrocities over decades has been tremendous. There is no one 'truth' concerning, Israel, Palestine, the Jews or the Palestinians. Some Jews are evil, some saintly, most somewhere in between. They are capable of spiritual and intellectual growth, and, sadly, regression. The same, naturally, is true of Palestinians, or any other group. No one group is uniformly saintly, certainly not by self assertion. One incontestable fact, however, is that Jewish diaspora communities are now dominated by the worst amongst them. The incessant arrogant bellicosity and endless bullying and denigration of those who refuse to toe the line of total obeisance to Israel and its Messianic aggression and cruelty, is clearly psychopathological. It is a real risk to human welfare that such totalitarian absolutists have hundreds of nuclear weapons at their disposal. It is even more chilling to contemplate the fact, that through exercise of their unparalleled money power, they have gained complete control of the governing organs of the global hegemon, and command Stalinist majorities for their racist and belligerent attacks on the Arab world. The disappearance of Israel no more means the extermination of the Jews that the disappearance of Israel's old love, apartheid South Africa meant the extermination of the Afrikaaners. The continued existence of a cruel, infinitely aggressive and vehemently racially supremacist Israel, however, can only be maintained by mass murder on an unimaginable scale. Already over two million Iraqis have died in the current aggression and the odious sanctions regime, and the Israelis and their propaganda apparatchiks are furiously pushing for more of the same against Iran. Their agitation also includes action against Sudan, taking utterly hypocritical advantage of the social strife in Darfur, the result of climate change, but portrayed, of course, as Moslem evil. These vile hypocrites have no concern over the vastly greater casualties in the Congo, as there are no Moslems there to demonise and Israeli businessmen are profiting nicely from mineral exploitation there, the acknowledged catalyst of most of the violence. And needless to say, they strongly approve of the vastly greater, than Darfur, carnage in Iraq. Their vile and cynical double standards are despicable. The concept of hasbara permeates the Western media entirely.Not surprising given the extent of Jewish, invariably Likudnick, ownership and the overwhelming presence of Jewish journalists, editors and opinion writers, once again invariably of the ‘morally pure’ Right. I am personally disinclined to attack the likes of Chomsky, whose work in outlining Israeli atrocities over decades has been tremendous. There is no one ‘truth’ concerning, Israel, Palestine, the Jews or the Palestinians. Some Jews are evil, some saintly, most somewhere in between. They are capable of spiritual and intellectual growth, and, sadly, regression. The same, naturally, is true of Palestinians, or any other group. No one group is uniformly saintly, certainly not by self assertion. One incontestable fact, however, is that Jewish diaspora communities are now dominated by the worst amongst them. The incessant arrogant bellicosity and endless bullying and denigration of those who refuse to toe the line of total obeisance to Israel and its Messianic aggression and cruelty, is clearly psychopathological. It is a real risk to human welfare that such totalitarian absolutists have hundreds of nuclear weapons at their disposal. It is even more chilling to contemplate the fact, that through exercise of their unparalleled money power, they have gained complete control of the governing organs of the global hegemon, and command Stalinist majorities for their racist and belligerent attacks on the Arab world. The disappearance of Israel no more means the extermination of the Jews that the disappearance of Israel’s old love, apartheid South Africa meant the extermination of the Afrikaaners. The continued existence of a cruel, infinitely aggressive and vehemently racially supremacist Israel, however, can only be maintained by mass murder on an unimaginable scale. Already over two million Iraqis have died in the current aggression and the odious sanctions regime, and the Israelis and their propaganda apparatchiks are furiously pushing for more of the same against Iran. Their agitation also includes action against Sudan, taking utterly hypocritical advantage of the social strife in Darfur, the result of climate change, but portrayed, of course, as Moslem evil. These vile hypocrites have no concern over the vastly greater casualties in the Congo, as there are no Moslems there to demonise and Israeli businessmen are profiting nicely from mineral exploitation there, the acknowledged catalyst of most of the violence. And needless to say, they strongly approve of the vastly greater, than Darfur, carnage in Iraq. Their vile and cynical double standards are despicable.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6014 gerald spezio Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:17:52 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6014 Hatuxka, I have read much of Chomsky's prolific writing over the last forty plus years. Although I am his greatest opponent about Cartesian Linguistics (a separate intellectual issue of great significance), I am respectful of his objectivity, humanity, and terrific brain. Chomsky's stated position about Israel being the follower and not the leader in the Palestine/Iraq murdering has shaken me about Chomsky's objectivity. I have argued with my colleagues about what I consider Chomsky's serious specific intellectual error about Israel's preponderant influence. Ditto for Mearsheimer and Walt and the degree of influence. Chomsky and James Petras went head to head about the power of the Israel Lobby, and I thought that Petras made an vastly superior case for the power and pervasiveness of the Israel lobby. That debate is on line. I still wouldn't write Chomsky off. J. A. Miller is one tough lady. Hatuxka, I have read much of Chomsky’s prolific writing over the last forty plus years. Although I am his greatest opponent about Cartesian Linguistics (a separate intellectual issue of great significance), I am respectful of his objectivity, humanity, and terrific brain.

Chomsky’s stated position about Israel being the follower and not the leader in the Palestine/Iraq murdering has shaken me about Chomsky’s objectivity. I have argued with my colleagues about what I consider Chomsky’s serious specific intellectual error about Israel’s preponderant influence. Ditto for Mearsheimer and Walt and the degree of influence.

Chomsky and James Petras went head to head about the power of the Israel Lobby, and I thought that Petras made an vastly superior case for the power and pervasiveness of the Israel lobby. That debate is on line. I still wouldn’t write Chomsky off.

J. A. Miller is one tough lady.

]]> By: Hatuxka http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6012 Hatuxka Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:15:31 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6012 I just can't get over the detail that you cite from Ilan Pappes work, concerning how these starry-eyed, innocent Zionists were in fact "casing the joint". Sickening. Especially in light of the narrative he tries to sell. This blows to smithereens any pretense that people like Avnery have of seeking justice in this situation. So with your excellent essay and one a couple days ago we have two pseudo-clear-eyed, faux iconoclasts that "radical" communities often give a platform to: Chomsky and Avnery, who need to be ridden out of town on a rail for selling their snake oil. I just can’t get over the detail that you cite from Ilan Pappes work, concerning how these starry-eyed, innocent Zionists were in fact “casing the joint”. Sickening. Especially in light of the narrative he tries to sell. This blows to smithereens any pretense that people like Avnery have of seeking justice in this situation. So with your excellent essay and one a couple days ago we have two pseudo-clear-eyed, faux iconoclasts that “radical” communities often give a platform to: Chomsky and Avnery, who need to be ridden out of town on a rail for selling their snake oil.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6003 gerald spezio Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:03:54 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-6003 J.A., your probing expose of Avnery drives deep into the entire Israeli propaganda machinery with its insidious variants. Pervasive variants that are carefully designed to cover all possible bases from every political perspective. Avnery is just one of them. Billions for peeyar and pepper in the eyes of the dumb goyim; not one shekel for truth. Just try to find where the Zionist line isn't surreptitiously pitched in all manner of frames and disguises from phoney scholarship, fears of Arab oil, sustainability, and soup to nuts blurbs about anything in any media. Holocaust, anti-semitism, Madonna in the holy land, filthy rich Arab sheiks, mad dog Ahmadinejad, polluted Arab minds, Islamofascism, independence from Arab oil, Palestinian duplicity, Muslim TERRORISTS, Muslim clitorectomies, Muslim denigration of women and feminism, Muslim suicide bombers, communities of spirit to free us from oily materialism, more Holocausts, more sufferings from rampant anti-semitism, even more Holocausts ... You confirm my suspicions about Avnery with your exhaustive depth. Most importantly, you lay open how slickly and subtly it intrudes into every facet of our everyday lives. J.A., your probing expose of Avnery drives deep into the entire Israeli propaganda machinery with its insidious variants. Pervasive variants that are carefully designed to cover all possible bases from every political perspective. Avnery is just one of them. Billions for peeyar and pepper in the eyes of the dumb goyim; not one shekel for truth.

Just try to find where the Zionist line isn’t surreptitiously pitched in all manner of frames and disguises from phoney scholarship, fears of Arab oil, sustainability, and soup to nuts blurbs about anything in any media.

Holocaust, anti-semitism, Madonna in the holy land, filthy rich Arab sheiks, mad dog Ahmadinejad, polluted Arab minds, Islamofascism, independence from Arab oil, Palestinian duplicity, Muslim TERRORISTS, Muslim clitorectomies, Muslim denigration of women and feminism, Muslim suicide bombers, communities of spirit to free us from oily materialism, more Holocausts, more sufferings from rampant anti-semitism, even more Holocausts …

You confirm my suspicions about Avnery with your exhaustive depth. Most importantly, you lay open how slickly and subtly it intrudes into every facet of our everyday lives.

]]> By: Hatuxka http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-5993 Hatuxka Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:17:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/%e2%80%9chuman-beings-of-another-people%e2%80%9d/#comment-5993 I stopped reading Avnery after his contorted, weird attempt to shirk off the application of the term apartheid to Israel (your reference no. 4). I stopped reading Avnery after his contorted, weird attempt to shirk off the application of the term apartheid to Israel (your reference no. 4).

]]>