Comments on: Rethinking the Development of Latin America and the Caribbean for the 21st Century http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Thomas Victor http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4307 Thomas Victor Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:28:06 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4307 For sure we're not disagreeing, just looking at different aspects of these surprising developments in South America. There are similar but different things happening in India, where I'm from, originally. A low caste woman, Mayawati, won the elections in the largest state, Uttar Pradesh. An immediate benefit is that the wanton mass killing of the 'untouchable' will immediately stop. Other than that will happen is anyone's guess. The taking of land away from farmers at low prices to give to the new Indian capitalist has run into roadblocks with resistance from local people, police firings etc. Meanwhile the Federal Government is run by the Congress parties and it's allies who have a thin majority. It is really a one woman rule by Sonia Gandhi the Italian wife of the late Rajiv Gandhi who was assassinated by Tamil Tigers possibly at the behest of the West who didn't want to see a charismatic popular and independent head of state. Manmohan Singh the Prime Minister is a World Bank/IMF kind of guy and has negotiated a secret pact with the US for Nuclear Energy which is widely seen as moving India into the US ambit. This secret pact is being bitterly contested, for example how can this deal be made without a vote in Parliament? . The Left parties, for once, are willing to break away from Congress over this issue even if it were to cause the Government to fall. Stay tuned and hope for the best. Online Sources of info on devlopments in India; Daily: The Hindu http://hinduonnet.com/ Magazine: Frontline http://www.frontlineonnet.com/ For sure we’re not disagreeing, just looking at different aspects of these surprising developments in South America.

There are similar but different things happening in India, where I’m from, originally. A low caste woman, Mayawati, won the elections in the largest state, Uttar Pradesh. An immediate benefit is that the wanton mass killing of the ‘untouchable’ will immediately stop. Other than that will happen is anyone’s guess.

The taking of land away from farmers at low prices to give to the new Indian capitalist has run into roadblocks with resistance from local people, police firings etc.

Meanwhile the Federal Government is run by the Congress parties and it’s allies who have a thin majority. It is really a one woman rule by Sonia Gandhi the Italian wife of the late Rajiv Gandhi who was assassinated by Tamil Tigers possibly at the behest of the West who didn’t want to see a charismatic popular and independent head of state.

Manmohan Singh the Prime Minister is a World Bank/IMF kind of guy and has negotiated a secret pact with the US for Nuclear Energy which is widely seen as moving India into the US ambit. This secret pact is being bitterly contested, for example how can this deal be made without a vote in Parliament? . The Left parties, for once, are willing to break away from Congress over this issue even if it were to cause the Government to fall.

Stay tuned and hope for the best.

Online Sources of info on devlopments in India;
Daily: The Hindu http://hinduonnet.com/
Magazine: Frontline http://www.frontlineonnet.com/

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4235 Max Shields Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:36:40 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4235 Thomas Victor, I was trying to clarify the need to see beyond the "survival" to what I think is the essence of Bolivarian transformation. Your point, as I indicated, is well taken, it's practical and may be critical. But what is going on in many parts of South America is equally vital and definitely sustainable, but is being ignored by the pieces done by Mr. Petras. I think, particularly with your last post that we are not disagreeing just looking at different ends of the situation. And I too hope this experiment not only survives but thrives. Thomas Victor, I was trying to clarify the need to see beyond the “survival” to what I think is the essence of Bolivarian transformation. Your point, as I indicated, is well taken, it’s practical and may be critical. But what is going on in many parts of South America is equally vital and definitely sustainable, but is being ignored by the pieces done by Mr. Petras.

I think, particularly with your last post that we are not disagreeing just looking at different ends of the situation. And I too hope this experiment not only survives but thrives.

]]> By: Thomas Victor http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4230 Thomas Victor Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:05:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4230 Max Shields, certainly I agree that "transforming to a sustainable economy" is what one would like to see, eventually. It's like you've been imprisoned and exploited for years, then suddenly you evict your captors. The first priority now is to a) Pay the rent b) Defend against counter-attacks, which are happening as we speak So that's what Bolivia and Venezuela are doing now, desperately trying to survive. It's pretty amazing, actually, what they've done. I pray that they not be crushed - as has happened previously with Allende, Lumumba and so many other leaders who dared to stand up for their own people. The other aspect is that you say that capitalism cannot be made 'compassionate, natural, or sustainable'. That's a valid point. Taking it further, can Bolivia's native population make the transition to industrialization and remain unaffected? Is industrialization itself, where people who have lived close to nature for centuries, now work in iron mines and huge petroleum refining plants, a transformation for the worse? I imagine that if the underlying system was not the competitive capitalism (privatized or state-run) that is seen in industrialized countries but instead was some kind of coooperative venture, maybe the working environment would be different. India, for example, in addition to huge capitalist companies like the Jindals, Reliance & Tatas, also have huge state run enterprises, with real unions, which have successfully resisted privatization and have a less dog-eat-dog kind of ambiance. They are constantly under attack from the western oriented elite in India but it seems even there, the pooer people are finally banding together against their exploiters. Say Bolivia decides we need X dollars to survive economically and to pay for defence forces, and then just do enough to reach that target instead of going for MAXIMUM output like everyone else, the working atmosphere, even in a petroluem refining plant or a factory assembly line, might be different. But for now, I just hope they can survive! Max Shields, certainly I agree that “transforming to a sustainable economy” is what one would like to see, eventually.

It’s like you’ve been imprisoned and exploited for years, then suddenly you evict your captors. The first priority now is to
a) Pay the rent
b) Defend against counter-attacks, which are happening as we speak

So that’s what Bolivia and Venezuela are doing now, desperately trying to survive. It’s pretty amazing, actually, what they’ve done. I pray that they not be crushed – as has happened previously with Allende, Lumumba and so many other leaders who dared to stand up for their own people.

The other aspect is that you say that capitalism cannot be made ‘compassionate, natural, or sustainable’. That’s a valid point.

Taking it further, can Bolivia’s native population make the transition to industrialization and remain unaffected? Is industrialization itself, where people who have lived close to nature for centuries, now work in iron mines and huge petroleum refining plants, a transformation for the worse? I imagine that if the underlying system was not the competitive capitalism (privatized or state-run) that is seen in industrialized countries but instead was some kind of coooperative venture, maybe the working environment would be different. India, for example, in addition to huge capitalist companies like the Jindals, Reliance & Tatas, also have huge state run enterprises, with real unions, which have successfully resisted privatization and have a less dog-eat-dog kind of ambiance. They are constantly under attack from the western oriented elite in India but it seems even there, the pooer people are finally banding together against their exploiters.

Say Bolivia decides we need X dollars to survive economically and to pay for defence forces, and then just do enough to reach that target instead of going for MAXIMUM output like everyone else, the working atmosphere, even in a petroluem refining plant or a factory assembly line, might be different.

But for now, I just hope they can survive!

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4229 Max Shields Sat, 18 Aug 2007 21:18:22 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4229 Sebastian Jerguson, "Personally, I do not believe that globalization in and of itself is an unjust predatory tool of capitalism. It is its implementation that disturbs me. Were globalization to be implemented fairly and completely, it would indeed be the tide that lifts all boats." Liberalized or rather neoliberalized Western/US asymetrical trade (preditory capitalism) is what globalization is. There is no hypocrisy with regard to these practices; hideous though they are. Actually, globalization has as an asymmetrical means of extracting resources from one country to provide economic growth for another has existed at least since mercantile days. This is and has been predatory. Today it is incarnated in corporated free market capitalism which proceeds to homogenize the world's cultures, colonize, commoditize, and privatize as much of the world (globe) as possible. Orwellian frames do not change that fact; any more than capitalism can be made compassionate, natural, or sustainable. The nature of globalization is what it is, as it is and has been practiced. Globalism - embracing cultural diversity, solidarity, fair trade that's a whole different thing. Sebastian Jerguson,
“Personally, I do not believe that globalization in and of itself is an unjust predatory tool of capitalism. It is its implementation that disturbs me. Were globalization to be implemented fairly and completely, it would indeed be the tide that lifts all boats.”

Liberalized or rather neoliberalized Western/US asymetrical trade (preditory capitalism) is what globalization is. There is no hypocrisy with regard to these practices; hideous though they are. Actually, globalization has as an asymmetrical means of extracting resources from one country to provide economic growth for another has existed at least since mercantile days. This is and has been predatory. Today it is incarnated in corporated free market capitalism which proceeds to homogenize the world’s cultures, colonize, commoditize, and privatize as much of the world (globe) as possible.

Orwellian frames do not change that fact; any more than capitalism can be made compassionate, natural, or sustainable. The nature of globalization is what it is, as it is and has been practiced.

Globalism – embracing cultural diversity, solidarity, fair trade that’s a whole different thing.

]]> By: Sebastian Jerguson http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4223 Sebastian Jerguson Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:21:15 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4223 Personally, I do not believe that globalization in and of itself is an unjust predatory tool of capitalism. It is its implementation that disturbs me. Were globalization to be implemented fairly and completely, it would indeed be the tide that lifts all boats. However, as it exists, the developed world only implements trade liberalization specifically and globalization more generally as it benefits the developed West. Here are two examples which resonate most clearly for me: 1) AGRICULTURAL SUBSIDIES: The West continues to prohibit the developing world from benefiting from the basic economic principles of competitive advantage. While the Dominican Republic can produce sugar much more affordably than in the US, there are prohibited from selling to the US due to agricultural subsidies. The same happens with Europe and many other food staples. 2) CAPITAL VS. LABOR MOBILITY While today most Western liberals are still caught up on the benefits of immigration restrictions--largely due to the concern for poverty within their own countries--they will sooner or later be forced to confront the fact that true factor mobility is the only effective means to achieving a more equal distribution of resources throughout the world. Likewise, global capitalists will have to admit the hypocrisy of enforcing the liberalization of capital mobility while fighting the free mobility of workers. As production factors within the capitalist model, they are truly equal. While #1 above seems feasible given the increasing ability of developing nations to form coalitions within structures of global governance, #2 is of course hindered by a much more unwieldy force in Western politics: racism. I'm not certain there is any way to overcome that obstacle other than the presentation of more people starving on the evening news. Then we'll see how long Mr. and Mrs. Jones can stomach it. Personally, I do not believe that globalization in and of itself is an unjust predatory tool of capitalism. It is its implementation that disturbs me. Were globalization to be implemented fairly and completely, it would indeed be the tide that lifts all boats. However, as it exists, the developed world only implements trade liberalization specifically and globalization more generally as it benefits the developed West. Here are two examples which resonate most clearly for me:

1) AGRICULTURAL SUBSIDIES:
The West continues to prohibit the developing world from benefiting from the basic economic principles of competitive advantage. While the Dominican Republic can produce sugar much more affordably than in the US, there are prohibited from selling to the US due to agricultural subsidies. The same happens with Europe and many other food staples.

2) CAPITAL VS. LABOR MOBILITY
While today most Western liberals are still caught up on the benefits of immigration restrictions–largely due to the concern for poverty within their own countries–they will sooner or later be forced to confront the fact that true factor mobility is the only effective means to achieving a more equal distribution of resources throughout the world. Likewise, global capitalists will have to admit the hypocrisy of enforcing the liberalization of capital mobility while fighting the free mobility of workers. As production factors within the capitalist model, they are truly equal.

While #1 above seems feasible given the increasing ability of developing nations to form coalitions within structures of global governance, #2 is of course hindered by a much more unwieldy force in Western politics: racism. I’m not certain there is any way to overcome that obstacle other than the presentation of more people starving on the evening news. Then we’ll see how long Mr. and Mrs. Jones can stomach it.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4218 Max Shields Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:47:00 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4218 Thomas Victor, while your point is well taken it remains, like much of Mr. Petras analysis within a narrow context. The case of mining and oil extraction are two very important consideration. The bigger context is who really "owns" the oil or the minerals? Simply natioinalizing oil/gas and other planetary resources does not diminish the need for stewardship. These are non-renewable and very limited resources. Petras arguments both here and earlier does not shift the narrative enough. Yes, nationalization puts these resources in the hands of the local population vis a vis the government, but we are left with no insight into how Venezuela or Boliva are planning to transform to a sustainable economy. Workers' Coops have begun and that's a step, but no mention here. The economics is still all Western/US capitalism premised. Thomas Victor, while your point is well taken it remains, like much of Mr. Petras analysis within a narrow context. The case of mining and oil extraction are two very important consideration. The bigger context is who really “owns” the oil or the minerals? Simply natioinalizing oil/gas and other planetary resources does not diminish the need for stewardship. These are non-renewable and very limited resources.

Petras arguments both here and earlier does not shift the narrative enough. Yes, nationalization puts these resources in the hands of the local population vis a vis the government, but we are left with no insight into how Venezuela or Boliva are planning to transform to a sustainable economy. Workers’ Coops have begun and that’s a step, but no mention here. The economics is still all Western/US capitalism premised.

]]> By: Thomas Victor http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4206 Thomas Victor Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:56:22 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4206 Re. "Evo Morales handing over the iron-magnesium Mutun Complex to the Indian multi-national cartel, Jindal, on exceedingly favorable (anti-national) terms." Petras is missing the important point that the mining and refining of minerals and oil/gas is an extremely complex process that takes a high degree of technical skill, years of experience and a supply of skilled labor. Bolivia can't do that kind of thing itself, not for many years. Previously the Western companies were the only choice. The new development is that Chinese and Indian companies have entered the field and offer a much better deal i.e. Bolivia gets a bigger slice of the pie. and this without any accompanying military and political pressure as is common with the western mining and oil companies. So why is this anti-national? What is Evo's alternative? Let the mines lie fallow till the the native Bolivians learn to do it themselves? Hopefully Bolivia has started a crash course in Technical Education for it's native population so that they can gain better control of their natural resources. Re. “Evo Morales handing over the iron-magnesium Mutun Complex to the Indian multi-national cartel, Jindal, on exceedingly favorable (anti-national) terms.”

Petras is missing the important point that the mining and refining of minerals and oil/gas is an extremely complex process that takes a high degree of technical skill, years of experience and a supply of skilled labor. Bolivia can’t do that kind of thing itself, not for many years.

Previously the Western companies were the only choice. The new development is that Chinese and Indian companies have entered the field and offer a much better deal i.e. Bolivia gets a bigger slice of the pie. and this without any accompanying military and political pressure as is common with the western mining and oil companies.

So why is this anti-national? What is Evo’s alternative? Let the mines lie fallow till the the native Bolivians learn to do it themselves?

Hopefully Bolivia has started a crash course in Technical Education for it’s native population so that they can gain better control of their natural resources.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4192 Max Shields Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:50:19 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4192 I'd go a step further and say that, perhaps for the first time in the history of empire, we are witnessing the colonization of the empire (US). Globalization (as a capitalistic predatory tool) knows no borders. The creation of multi-millionairs and transformation of millionairs to billionairs is happening right here. It is not too far feteched to wonder if the developing world might not have a leg up on us in terms of recovering from the beast. I’d go a step further and say that, perhaps for the first time in the history of empire, we are witnessing the colonization of the empire (US).

Globalization (as a capitalistic predatory tool) knows no borders. The creation of multi-millionairs and transformation of millionairs to billionairs is happening right here.

It is not too far feteched to wonder if the developing world might not have a leg up on us in terms of recovering from the beast.

]]> By: Michael Kenny http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4189 Michael Kenny Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:35:28 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/rethinking-the-development-of-latin-america-and-the-caribbean-for-the-21st-century/#comment-4189 Although I would have preferred a more succinct presentation and simpler language, Mr Petras makes an important point which is in no way limited to Latin America, namely the growing world disenchantment with globalisation. Basically, globalisation was sold to the world as favouring rich countries by making goods cheaper and crucially, it was sold to world elites, in poor countries as well as rich, as making them personally richer. In practice, globalisation sucks wealth from the rest of the world towards the US and within the US, upwards to a miniscule, super rich, elite. That has left the elites in other countries out in the cold and they don't like it! That has "respectabilised" oposition to globalisation, which is well on its way to join communism in the proverbial dustbin of history. What now? 20th century socialism did immense good, but it is running out of steam. 19th century liberalism also did immense good but trying to go back to it just revives the problems socialism arose to solve. The world needs a new ideology for the 21st century and judging by today's (highly impressive!) youth, it will be some form of ecology. Although I would have preferred a more succinct presentation and simpler language, Mr Petras makes an important point which is in no way limited to Latin America, namely the growing world disenchantment with globalisation.

Basically, globalisation was sold to the world as favouring rich countries by making goods cheaper and crucially, it was sold to world elites, in poor countries as well as rich, as making them personally richer. In practice, globalisation sucks wealth from the rest of the world towards the US and within the US, upwards to a miniscule, super rich, elite. That has left the elites in other countries out in the cold and they don’t like it! That has “respectabilised” oposition to globalisation, which is well on its way to join communism in the proverbial dustbin of history.

What now? 20th century socialism did immense good, but it is running out of steam. 19th century liberalism also did immense good but trying to go back to it just revives the problems socialism arose to solve. The world needs a new ideology for the 21st century and judging by today’s (highly impressive!) youth, it will be some form of ecology.

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