Comments on: Not Your Ordinary 4th of July in Vicenza, Italy http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Beetlee http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-14561 Beetlee Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:29:38 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-14561 Well, this is a very interesting debate, unfortunately, until you have lived in Vicenza or its province, you will not know what the locals say about the issue. I do know that my Italian friends and neighbours don't mind having us here, they love the cultural exchange that we offer with them. I do know that the crafters in the area are so please of the interest that we have for their products, being the beautifull handmade leather purses, wonderfull Nove Ceramics, or awesome olive wood furniture: ask them what they think of the Americans, they will tell you that their craft is still alive because of them! So, you see Stephanie, this is not only about money, but about a way that allows them to continue to make their beautifull things the way they did one hundred years ago, and not having to manufacture everything in China, like so many other companies do. So, there you go, maybe you should start working on how the big companies in the States should stop thinking about making more money, and start bringing the jobs back in the States. But I guess it is easier to protest about the military bases overseas, than to see the real problems in the American soil. Beetlee. Well, this is a very interesting debate, unfortunately, until you have lived in Vicenza or its province, you will not know what the locals say about the issue.
I do know that my Italian friends and neighbours don’t mind having us here, they love the cultural exchange that we offer with them.
I do know that the crafters in the area are so please of the interest that we have for their products, being the beautifull handmade leather purses, wonderfull Nove Ceramics, or awesome olive wood furniture: ask them what they think of the Americans, they will tell you that their craft is still alive because of them! So, you see Stephanie, this is not only about money, but about a way that allows them to continue to make their beautifull things the way they did one hundred years ago, and not having to manufacture everything in China, like so many other companies do.
So, there you go, maybe you should start working on how the big companies in the States should stop thinking about making more money, and start bringing the jobs back in the States.
But I guess it is easier to protest about the military bases overseas, than to see the real problems in the American soil.
Beetlee.

]]> By: Eric http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-13415 Eric Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:36:11 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-13415 It may be late but I'd like to add my two cents worth. I lived in Vicenza from 1971 to 1974 while my Dad was stationed there and ultimately in Vietnam. World War II was over but some of the physical damage was still in evidence. Since having grown up in a military family and upon reaching the US in '74 went on to Georgia Military Academy and then to North Georgia College and into the Army, I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of Americans are clue-less. History repeats itself over and over because of the stupidity of people to learn from their mistakes. A previous poster here compares the US to Nazism, Stephanie speaks from the Ivory tower provided to her from the blood of all the people who died to give her the liberty she thinks is her birthright. Protesting is one thing but ALWAYS remember who GAVE you the ABILITY to protest, not the right but the ABILITY, the U.S. A. I guess the one thing that c0nstantly amazes me is the virtually all protesters , protest behind the protection of the freedoms won by the American military. If you want to truly protest, do something original like renouncing your citizenship. But apply for citizenship in a more progressive country where the goverment would welcome a protester of your caliber...My country, ever may she be right, my country! It may be late but I’d like to add my two cents worth. I lived in Vicenza from 1971 to 1974 while my Dad was stationed there and ultimately in Vietnam. World War II was over but some of the physical damage was still in evidence. Since having grown up in a military family and upon reaching the US in ’74 went on to Georgia Military Academy and then to North Georgia College and into the Army, I’ve come to the conclusion that the vast majority of Americans are clue-less. History repeats itself over and over because of the stupidity of people to learn from their mistakes. A previous poster here compares the US to Nazism, Stephanie speaks from the Ivory tower provided to her from the blood of all the people who died to give her the liberty she thinks is her birthright. Protesting is one thing but ALWAYS remember who GAVE you the ABILITY to protest, not the right but the ABILITY, the U.S. A.
I guess the one thing that c0nstantly amazes me is the virtually all protesters , protest behind the protection of the freedoms won by the American military. If you want to truly protest, do something original like renouncing your citizenship. But apply for citizenship in a more progressive country where the goverment would welcome a protester of your caliber…My country, ever may she be right, my country!

]]> By: Pete http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-3027 Pete Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:59:04 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-3027 Stephanie, I have visited the tent site, it's a couple of miles from our house. I suggest you visit the groups that travel for hours by bus from Vicenza to Rome to show support for the Dal Molin project. The last time they went they filled 6 buses or around 300 people from Vicenza at 20 Euros each for the bus ticket and traveled all night to be there in the morning. Our personal experience has been mostly that of support for the project from our landlords and our neighbors and have had more of them recently call on us to reiterate that support. We appreciate the Italians on both sides of the issue who study the facts and make up their own minds rather than propaganda fom the left or right. Stephanie, I have visited the tent site, it’s a couple of miles from our house.

I suggest you visit the groups that travel for hours by bus from Vicenza to Rome to show support for the Dal Molin project. The last time they went they filled 6 buses or around 300 people from Vicenza at 20 Euros each for the bus ticket and traveled all night to be there in the morning.

Our personal experience has been mostly that of support for the project from our landlords and our neighbors and have had more of them recently call on us to reiterate that support. We appreciate the Italians on both sides of the issue who study the facts and make up their own minds rather than propaganda fom the left or right.

]]> By: Stephanie http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2605 Stephanie Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:35:09 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2605 W.R. - believe me, it was not the photo, but what was being photographed -- the No Dal Molin flag -- that was the problem. And at the entrance there was a short list of things you could not bring in; cameras and flags were not on the list. Nor was their anything about taking photos. On the "long-standing, warm relationship between the citizens of Vicenza and the residents of the bases," the best response to that is what one of the Vicenza residents once said: In a friendship, you might invite someone into your home and give them a room. But when they start demanding the kitchen and the living room and the yard and the garage, the relationship changes. Aussie - as far as pouring money into the local economy, I wonder if you are aware that taxpayers in Italy (I assume you pay taxes here) cover at least 37% of operating costs of U.S. bases as part of the host nation support? And did you know that they are also exempt from paying VAT taxes on things such as energy and fuel? This might explain why people outside of Vicenza are also opposed to the new base, in addition to being strongly opposed to supporting the U.S. wars. In any event, I do think we first need to ask, is yet another U.S. military base what Vicenza really needs to stimulate its economy? Might there be some other way to create jobs? You also say, "The “No Dal Molin” movement is not at all interested in the facts surrounding the issue." You apparently missed the presentation a few weeks ago of the report by the technical team comprised of engineers and technicians who have been studying the impact of the base. It was choc full of facts! Take water for example. The request has been made for 60 liters/second on average, 260 l/s peak. This is equivalent to 30,000 Vicentini. As you know, Vicenza has a population of about 120,000. That's quite an increase! There is also the very detailed study of the Site Pluto produced by the movement. And countless depliants and dossiers on the impact of the base. So to say they aren't interested in fact is to not know this movement at all. Perhaps you should drop by the Presidio Permanente, the camp set up near the proposed base that has been open and run by the movement since last January (!) and pick-up some reading material. Or better yet, try to make it to one of the weekly assemblies that draw a couple of hundred people -- every single week! Cheers! W.R. – believe me, it was not the photo, but what was being photographed — the No Dal Molin flag — that was the problem. And at the entrance there was a short list of things you could not bring in; cameras and flags were not on the list. Nor was their anything about taking photos.

On the “long-standing, warm relationship between the citizens of Vicenza and the residents of the bases,” the best response to that is what one of the Vicenza residents once said: In a friendship, you might invite someone into your home and give them a room. But when they start demanding the kitchen and the living room and the yard and the garage, the relationship changes.

Aussie – as far as pouring money into the local economy, I wonder if you are aware that taxpayers in Italy (I assume you pay taxes here) cover at least 37% of operating costs of U.S. bases as part of the host nation support? And did you know that they are also exempt from paying VAT taxes on things such as energy and fuel? This might explain why people outside of Vicenza are also opposed to the new base, in addition to being strongly opposed to supporting the U.S. wars.

In any event, I do think we first need to ask, is yet another U.S. military base what Vicenza really needs to stimulate its economy? Might there be some other way to create jobs?

You also say, “The “No Dal Molin” movement is not at all interested in the facts surrounding the issue.” You apparently missed the presentation a few weeks ago of the report by the technical team comprised of engineers and technicians who have been studying the impact of the base. It was choc full of facts! Take water for example. The request has been made for 60 liters/second on average, 260 l/s peak. This is equivalent to 30,000 Vicentini. As you know, Vicenza has a population of about 120,000. That’s quite an increase!

There is also the very detailed study of the Site Pluto produced by the movement. And countless depliants and dossiers on the impact of the base.

So to say they aren’t interested in fact is to not know this movement at all.

Perhaps you should drop by the Presidio Permanente, the camp set up near the proposed base that has been open and run by the movement since last January (!) and pick-up some reading material. Or better yet, try to make it to one of the weekly assemblies that draw a couple of hundred people — every single week!

Cheers!

]]> By: Whodat http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2588 Whodat Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:32:43 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2588 The base I was stationed at was referred to as 'That American Slum' by the surrounding populace. America is an in-your-face, violent society compared to European standards of conduct. Training 'youngsters' to stand in rows doesn't necessarily do anything for thier maturity so drunkeness, drugs and beating up on the locals is just the way it is. Some communities are willing to accept the rowdy bars, whorehouses and obnoxious (say it loud enough and they'll understand english) free-spending 'guests'. But it should be up to those affected directly, not just some government pen-pusher. The base I was stationed at was referred to as ‘That American Slum’ by the surrounding populace. America is an in-your-face, violent society compared to European standards of conduct. Training ‘youngsters’ to stand in rows doesn’t necessarily do anything for thier maturity so drunkeness, drugs and beating up on the locals is just the way it is. Some communities are willing to accept the rowdy bars, whorehouses and obnoxious (say it loud enough and they’ll understand english) free-spending ‘guests’. But it should be up to those affected directly, not just some government pen-pusher.

]]> By: Hue Longer http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2563 Hue Longer Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:55:01 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2563 Ah, if only the world could understand what most Italians seem to by Digger's account...the US military is a benevolent peace organization occupying every continent in order to help local economies and sell cookies. Remember that the Austrians and French loved the Nazi's too (for real- they did)...so a thousand crazies representing the vast minority that just don't get it, show up with "No Dal Molin" flags at a protest… where has Freud been proven wrong before concerning sanity and masses? Ah, if only the world could understand what most Italians seem to by Digger’s account…the US military is a benevolent peace organization occupying every continent in order to help local economies and sell cookies. Remember that the Austrians and French loved the Nazi’s too (for real- they did)…so a thousand crazies representing the vast minority that just don’t get it, show up with “No Dal Molin” flags at a protest… where has Freud been proven wrong before concerning sanity and masses?

]]> By: Aussie http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2556 Aussie Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:57:47 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2556 As someone who actually lives in Vicenza and has for some time now, unlike the writer and the majority of the "No Dal Molin"supporters, I can honestly say that in my experience the average Vicenzan supports the base or is entirely indifferent about the issue. The truth is that the American base in Vicenza provides employment for a large number of Italians and the Americans here pour enormous amounts of money into the local economy. Of course there are some Americans here with the military who are ignorant and outspoken, although evidently that has little to do with the military. As a non US citizen, I can understand many of the concerns over the proposed base however many of these concerns arise from a lack of understanding. For example, one common concern is the environmental impact of a new base as the common belief is that the US military does not abide by the environmental standards of the Italian community, obviously they are unaware that part of the agreement between the Italian and US Governments includes strict environmental regulations that the US military must adhere to. Another common concern is over the aircraft noise that the new base would bring to the area, however the plan for the base (a plan that has been made public) is not to use it as a staging base, therefore the runway will seldom be used and certainly not by fighter jets. This fact makes the "No Dal Molin" flag laughable as at present the base often has Italian military helicopters flying in and out, as well as the occasional Italian fighter jet, this is far more activity than the US miltary would produce. The "No Dal Molin" movement is not at all interested in the facts surrounding the issue, as they continually fail to address the plans that have been made very public but prefer to protest to the soldiers and their families who, realistically, have no influence over the government deal that has been made. It seems to me that people who are genuinely concerned about an issue would do their homework and a little more research. Dissapointingly it seems their only concern is jumping on the latest bandwagon and making noise, all they convince others of is their ignorance. As someone who actually lives in Vicenza and has for some time now, unlike the writer and the majority of the “No Dal Molin”supporters, I can honestly say that in my experience the average Vicenzan supports the base or is entirely indifferent about the issue. The truth is that the American base in Vicenza provides employment for a large number of Italians and the Americans here pour enormous amounts of money into the local economy. Of course there are some Americans here with the military who are ignorant and outspoken, although evidently that has little to do with the military.
As a non US citizen, I can understand many of the concerns over the proposed base however many of these concerns arise from a lack of understanding. For example, one common concern is the environmental impact of a new base as the common belief is that the US military does not abide by the environmental standards of the Italian community, obviously they are unaware that part of the agreement between the Italian and US Governments includes strict environmental regulations that the US military must adhere to.
Another common concern is over the aircraft noise that the new base would bring to the area, however the plan for the base (a plan that has been made public) is not to use it as a staging base, therefore the runway will seldom be used and certainly not by fighter jets. This fact makes the “No Dal Molin” flag laughable as at present the base often has Italian military helicopters flying in and out, as well as the occasional Italian fighter jet, this is far more activity than the US miltary would produce.
The “No Dal Molin” movement is not at all interested in the facts surrounding the issue, as they continually fail to address the plans that have been made very public but prefer to protest to the soldiers and their families who, realistically, have no influence over the government deal that has been made. It seems to me that people who are genuinely concerned about an issue would do their homework and a little more research. Dissapointingly it seems their only concern is jumping on the latest bandwagon and making noise, all they convince others of is their ignorance.

]]> By: Hue Longer http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2552 Hue Longer Sun, 08 Jul 2007 04:52:53 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2552 So WR, does that then mean that you are an "insider"? The Nazi's felt the same way when they viewed their multi national occupations...they would always get outraged at the idea that the world wouldn't want them. You give new meaning to the once noble phrase, "The world is my country". So WR, does that then mean that you are an “insider”? The Nazi’s felt the same way when they viewed their multi national occupations…they would always get outraged at the idea that the world wouldn’t want them. You give new meaning to the once noble phrase, “The world is my country”.

]]> By: W. R. http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2526 W. R. Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:25:07 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/not-your-ordinary-4th-of-july-in-vicenza-italy/#comment-2526 You pathetic bunch of spoiled American children! If you were truly dedicated to "challenging distortions and lies," as your front page so proudly states, you would have report the fact that signs prohibiting unauthorized photography are posted at each entry. You obviously recognized that you were entering a military facility, but did not think that the rules applied to you? How can you be surprised that rules are enforced on a military base. Earth to Stephanie!! Not only did you insult your readers, but you thumbed your noses at those who proudly work and serve at Ederle and DalMolin. It is a fact that there is a long-standing, warm relationship between the citizens of Vicenza and the residents of the bases. Contrary to your reports, the vast majority of local residents support the base expansion and do not welcome inference by nonresident do-gooders. Outsider involvement in the local debate gets no traction. W.R. You pathetic bunch of spoiled American children!
If you were truly dedicated to “challenging distortions and lies,” as your front page so proudly states, you would have report the fact that signs prohibiting unauthorized photography are posted at each entry. You obviously recognized that you were entering a military facility, but did not think that the rules applied to you? How can you be surprised that rules are enforced on a military base. Earth to Stephanie!!
Not only did you insult your readers, but you thumbed your noses at those who proudly work and serve at Ederle and DalMolin.
It is a fact that there is a long-standing, warm relationship between the citizens of Vicenza and the residents of the bases. Contrary to your reports, the vast majority of local residents support the base expansion and do not welcome inference by nonresident do-gooders. Outsider involvement in the local debate gets no traction.
W.R.

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