Comments on: Market Failure: The Back of the Invisible Hand http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:26:27 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Carol http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-47004 Carol Wed, 27 May 2009 12:42:40 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-47004 lol lol

]]> By: Letter to Dissenting Voice « Good Morning, Economics http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1793 Letter to Dissenting Voice « Good Morning, Economics Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:42:48 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1793 [...] 2007 in letter to the editor by jsalvati Here is a letter to the editor I wrote in response to this article over at Dissenting Voice:  I am writing to respond to Ernest Partridge’s June 20th [...] [...] 2007 in letter to the editor by jsalvati Here is a letter to the editor I wrote in response to this article over at Dissenting Voice:  I am writing to respond to Ernest Partridge’s June 20th [...]

]]> By: jsalvati http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1792 jsalvati Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:12:31 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1792 hmm, sorry I meant that I had *not* heard of Robert Smith before. hmm, sorry I meant that I had *not* heard of Robert Smith before.

]]> By: jsalvati http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1786 jsalvati Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:37:35 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1786 It is quite disingenuous to call free-market fundamentalism "the dogma of the ruling elites." Few politicians would even qualify as moderate libertarians (don’t even think about referring to the president as a market oriented person). Although market fundamentalists do exist, I think you are wrong to characterize all libertarians, especially the academic libertarian crowd, as market fundamentalists. Most libertarians with some economics knowledge recognize the existence of market failures (not sure why you kept that in quotes), and often willing to use the government to fix those market failures, but usually in more market oriented ways. I also think you misunderstand Robert Smith, his point isn't that the free market as it exists now will fix all problems, but that establishing other property rights will help fix environmental problems (I have heard of Robert Smith before, but it’s all in your quote). The theme that many environmental problems come from insufficient property rights is common among libertarians. What he is discussing is the difference between "command and control" regulation and market based regulation. For example, a market based regulatory solution global warming would be to establish either a tax on green-house gas (GHG) emissions or have the government auction off permits for GHG emissions. A "command and control" solution would be for the government to set specific limits on how much GHG emissions individual polluters can release. Libertarians are much more likely to support the first type than the second type, although I (and I consider myself libertarian) would acknowledge limits on market based regulations. Market based solutions exist for many environmental problems, everything from fish stock depletion to ozone depletion, and you will find that market based solutions are often regarded as better and easier solutions to environmental problems command and control regulations for many problems by economists. It is quite disingenuous to call free-market fundamentalism “the dogma of the ruling elites.” Few politicians would even qualify as moderate libertarians (don’t even think about referring to the president as a market oriented person). Although market fundamentalists do exist, I think you are wrong to characterize all libertarians, especially the academic libertarian crowd, as market fundamentalists. Most libertarians with some economics knowledge recognize the existence of market failures (not sure why you kept that in quotes), and often willing to use the government to fix those market failures, but usually in more market oriented ways.

I also think you misunderstand Robert Smith, his point isn’t that the free market as it exists now will fix all problems, but that establishing other property rights will help fix environmental problems (I have heard of Robert Smith before, but it’s all in your quote). The theme that many environmental problems come from insufficient property rights is common among libertarians. What he is discussing is the difference between “command and control” regulation and market based regulation. For example, a market based regulatory solution global warming would be to establish either a tax on green-house gas (GHG) emissions or have the government auction off permits for GHG emissions. A “command and control” solution would be for the government to set specific limits on how much GHG emissions individual polluters can release. Libertarians are much more likely to support the first type than the second type, although I (and I consider myself libertarian) would acknowledge limits on market based regulations. Market based solutions exist for many environmental problems, everything from fish stock depletion to ozone depletion, and you will find that market based solutions are often regarded as better and easier solutions to environmental problems command and control regulations for many problems by economists.

]]> By: Jeremy Wells http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1783 Jeremy Wells Sat, 23 Jun 2007 07:51:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1783 Abstract theory of the "market" degenerates into mind-controlling propaganda. This babble is designed to facilitate the exploitation of working people and the rape of the economic resources of the planet. Replace the word "privatization" with "steal" or "loot" and you will understand everything you need to know. The federal government has been largely "privatized" as has the military with the use of "contractors" and mercenaries. War is now unashemedly driven for corporate greedand profit, despite all the "reasons" for war. Global warming, war, mass poverty, mass migrations, etc. cannot be "reformed" or but must be ended. Global capitalism, organized by U.S. hegemony, must be ended if humanity is to survival. Read daily the World Socialist Web Site http://www.wsws.org jeremy@infowells.com Abstract theory of the “market” degenerates into mind-controlling propaganda. This babble is designed to facilitate the exploitation of working people and the rape of the economic resources of the planet.

Replace the word “privatization” with “steal” or “loot” and you will understand everything you need to know. The federal government has been largely “privatized” as has the military with the use of “contractors” and mercenaries. War is now unashemedly driven for corporate greedand profit, despite all the “reasons” for war.

Global warming, war, mass poverty, mass migrations, etc. cannot be “reformed” or but must be ended.
Global capitalism, organized by U.S. hegemony, must be ended if humanity is
to survival.

Read daily the World Socialist Web Site
http://www.wsws.org

jeremy@infowells.com

]]> By: Mulga Mumblebrain http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1691 Mulga Mumblebrain Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:09:29 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1691 Market Fundamentalism is a cancerous system. Like a neoplasm it is most malignant when most undifferentiated, hence the 'one size fits all' policies inflicted by those High Malignancies the IMF, World Bank and WTO, on their Poor World victims. The link between Smith and Malthus is clear too, from policies that decimate public health and education in the Poor World, and the Market Fundamentalist dogma that puts BigPharma's profits before the lives of AIDS victims in Africa and elsewhere. Market Fundamentalism is the precise antithesis of democracy, power instead accruing either, depending on your taste in labels, to the rich ie a plutocracy, or to the worst people in society, ie a kakistocracy. Usually the two groups are, more or less, congruent. The current wave of neo-liberal Market Terror has its roots in the disappearance of the socialist alternative. With the threat, however flawed, of the Soviet Union gone and China reverting to capitalism, the Masters have been free to return the world to a neo-feudal state. Workers everywhere are being treated more and more as serfs. No Market Capitalist society ever reformed peacefully. All social amelioration was granted, grudgingly, out of fear of the proles. It is now all being taken back. Unless the rule of that parasitic caste whose religion is Market Fundamentalism is ended, they will immiserise 90% of humanity, probably exterminating billions through war, disease, starvation and malign neglect. It's their idea of a solution to the world's ecological crisis. The odds of this liberation occuring are infinitessimal, as the Bosses are quite capable of destroying the world rather than surrendering their privileges. Market Fundamentalism is a cancerous system. Like a neoplasm it is most malignant when most undifferentiated, hence the ‘one size fits all’ policies inflicted by those High Malignancies the IMF, World Bank and WTO, on their Poor World victims. The link between Smith and Malthus is clear too, from policies that decimate public health and education in the Poor World, and the Market Fundamentalist dogma that puts BigPharma’s profits before the lives of AIDS victims in Africa and elsewhere. Market Fundamentalism is the precise antithesis of democracy, power instead accruing either, depending on your taste in labels, to the rich ie a plutocracy, or to the worst people in society, ie a kakistocracy. Usually the two groups are, more or less, congruent. The current wave of neo-liberal Market Terror has its roots in the disappearance of the socialist alternative. With the threat, however flawed, of the Soviet Union gone and China reverting to capitalism, the Masters have been free to return the world to a neo-feudal state. Workers everywhere are being treated more and more as serfs. No Market Capitalist society ever reformed peacefully. All social amelioration was granted, grudgingly, out of fear of the proles. It is now all being taken back. Unless the rule of that parasitic caste whose religion is Market Fundamentalism is ended, they will immiserise 90% of humanity, probably exterminating billions through war, disease, starvation and malign neglect. It’s their idea of a solution to the world’s ecological crisis. The odds of this liberation occuring are infinitessimal, as the Bosses are quite capable of destroying the world rather than surrendering their privileges.

]]> By: stephen http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1687 stephen Thu, 21 Jun 2007 07:43:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1687 in reply to darrin actually, your tobacco argument falls apart by misrepresenting what he said. you said "restrict the right" and "force" medical advice... yet you are completely allowed, if you are of legal age, to purchase cigarettes. you have the *right to choose* to ignore the warnings. but they are there for you, in case you want to take them seriously. most of us do. you don't have to though. that's your choice. warning some guy that sticking his head in a microwave might cause harm to his brain is not violent, nor is it restrictive. it's not even interference. it's a warning. in reply to darrin

actually, your tobacco argument falls apart by misrepresenting what he said. you said “restrict the right” and “force” medical advice… yet you are completely allowed, if you are of legal age, to purchase cigarettes. you have the *right to choose* to ignore the warnings. but they are there for you, in case you want to take them seriously. most of us do. you don’t have to though. that’s your choice. warning some guy that sticking his head in a microwave might cause harm to his brain is not violent, nor is it restrictive. it’s not even interference. it’s a warning.

]]> By: Deadbeat http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1685 Deadbeat Thu, 21 Jun 2007 06:10:19 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1685 Racism help to promote the notion of the "Free" market and the conditions that allowed the rise of Ronald Reagan. While these conservative intellectuals are few in number they would never have been able to enter the corridors of government if they were no white privilege that help to build their base of support. Reagan racism was how he was able to "win" over the "Reagan" Democrats that pushed him into office. The ideology of the "free" market was embraced by whites because they felt since they have white privilege they would be the beneficiaries while those "blacks on welfare" was dragging the nation down. So they too wanted to see government "cut". Well it didn't happen that way. Yep they cut social programs used by everyone -- white and black. And cut taxes for the rich -- meaning they get to keep the spoils of capitalism that naturally maldistributes wealth. And increase government spending on the military that also maldistributes wealth to the top. While increasing tax burdens on workers - yet another way to maldistribute wealth. Racism help to promote the notion of the “Free” market and the conditions that allowed the rise of Ronald Reagan. While these conservative intellectuals are few in number they would never have been able to enter the corridors of government if they were no white privilege that help to build their base of support. Reagan racism was how he was able to “win” over the “Reagan” Democrats that pushed him into office. The ideology of the “free” market was embraced by whites because they felt since they have white privilege they would be the beneficiaries while those “blacks on welfare” was dragging the nation down. So they too wanted to see government “cut”.

Well it didn’t happen that way. Yep they cut social programs used by everyone — white and black. And cut taxes for the rich — meaning they get to keep the spoils of capitalism that naturally maldistributes wealth. And increase government spending on the military that also maldistributes wealth to the top. While increasing tax burdens on workers – yet another way to maldistribute wealth.

]]> By: Aaron http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1661 Aaron Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:36:08 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1661 A prime example of the fallacy of "free market" enterprise, and the so-called benefits of privatization- the current U.S health care system! It is a sad fact that Americans pay far more for less when it comes to health care- in fact the U.S was rated # 37 in health care, beaten senseless by most of "left" Europe. Yup, that invisible hand sure is working. Working to send the average American into indentured servitude.... with a 10,000.0 $ bill just to see a doctor and get your hand stitched up when you cut it doing yard work, or slicing it open in a nice cushy minimum wage service sector job, since all the good jobs got outsourced. White collar is next on the chopping block to be outsourced, and it's already hapenning. There'll be a lot more converts to socialism when what's left of the middle class (how dare they try to organize themselves in the 60's and 70's!!!) finally gets hollowed out, those hungry dogs at the top will be licking their chops at all the money they can get out of the upper-middle class. And so it will go until one day you'll wake up and realize that you live in a third world country, lucky to be indentured to a "benevolent" corporatocracy, or maybe even a nice dictatorship (will have to get a little rough with the people when they get out of sorts about having to settle for a lower quality of life you know?) A prime example of the fallacy of “free market” enterprise, and the so-called benefits of privatization- the current U.S health care system! It is a sad fact that Americans pay far more for less when it comes to health care- in fact the U.S was rated # 37 in health care, beaten senseless by most of “left” Europe. Yup, that invisible hand sure is working. Working to send the average American into indentured servitude…. with a 10,000.0 $ bill just to see a doctor and get your hand stitched up when you cut it doing yard work, or slicing it open in a nice cushy minimum wage service sector job, since all the good jobs got outsourced. White collar is next on the chopping block to be outsourced, and it’s already hapenning. There’ll be a lot more converts to socialism when what’s left of the middle class (how dare they try to organize themselves in the 60’s and 70’s!!!) finally gets hollowed out, those hungry dogs at the top will be licking their chops at all the money they can get out of the upper-middle class. And so it will go until one day you’ll wake up and realize that you live in a third world country, lucky to be indentured to a “benevolent” corporatocracy, or maybe even a nice dictatorship (will have to get a little rough with the people when they get out of sorts about having to settle for a lower quality of life you know?)

]]> By: David A. Smith http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1644 David A. Smith Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:50:31 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1644 Would like to see your comments on the other half of the equation. Yes, government has a responsibility to promote a social polity that promotes a responsible market system. But it is a mistake to think that the present market system is anything like a "free" market. Moneyed interests have manipulated the government to create laws that favor the current market system, from laws establishing corporations as legal entities to tax breaks to patents to regulatory groups, etc. We won't see the government become an effective tool for the amelioration of the harm that our current economic system causes until control of the government is taken away from those who also run the economic system. I'm afraid I don't see that happening any time soon. Would like to see your comments on the other half of the equation. Yes, government has a responsibility to promote a social polity that promotes a responsible market system. But it is a mistake to think that the present market system is anything like a “free” market. Moneyed interests have manipulated the government to create laws that favor the current market system, from laws establishing corporations as legal entities to tax breaks to patents to regulatory groups, etc. We won’t see the government become an effective tool for the amelioration of the harm that our current economic system causes until control of the government is taken away from those who also run the economic system. I’m afraid I don’t see that happening any time soon.

]]> By: Darrin Knode http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1643 Darrin Knode Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:30:59 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/06/market-failure-the-back-of-the-invisible-hand/#comment-1643 There are far too many fallacies, asssumptions, and intentional misrepresentations within this garbage pail of an article to address them all without writing too much for a response to an article, so I will focus upon two items within your list of market "failures". Tobacco industry (your opposition to a right to ones own body) and outsourcing (your inability to properly access the effect to our economy of tariffs and protectionism) Tobacco industry: Your assumption that your supposedly benevolent actions of the state to restrict the right of people to use a drug is quite telling and extremely hypocritical of one who writes fro a site which attempts to market itself as supportive of peace and justice. How is it peaceful to force your moral and medical views of what is right and healthy upon people by making thier choice to use a drug more expensive? How is it just to interfere with the right to ones own body? Outsourcing : What you view as "devestating" is not in the slightest... unless you consider allowing domestic business to survive in the world market and superior prices available to consumer and the subsequent increase in standards of living... "devestating". All of these restrictions on the market hurt domestic jobs more than the outsourcing you fear. Domestic restrictions and price caps and minimum wages FORCE domestic businesses to outsource to other nations in order to compete... in order to stay alive. Additionally domestic businesses, when protected from foriegn competition, become wasteful, inefficient, and allow the quality of production to lax. This is nowhere more obvious than in the domestic steel industry whose union push for protection from foriegn comeptition virtually eliminated the industry within the united states... while raising steel prices which hurt construction and ultimately are reflected in rising costs across the board. There are far too many fallacies, asssumptions, and intentional misrepresentations within this garbage pail of an article to address them all without writing too much for a response to an article, so I will focus upon two items within your list of market “failures”. Tobacco industry (your opposition to a right to ones own body) and outsourcing (your inability to properly access the effect to our economy of tariffs and protectionism)

Tobacco industry:
Your assumption that your supposedly benevolent actions of the state to restrict the right of people to use a drug is quite telling and extremely hypocritical of one who writes fro a site which attempts to market itself as supportive of peace and justice. How is it peaceful to force your moral and medical views of what is right and healthy upon people by making thier choice to use a drug more expensive? How is it just to interfere with the right to ones own body?

Outsourcing :
What you view as “devestating” is not in the slightest… unless you consider allowing domestic business to survive in the world market and superior prices available to consumer and the subsequent increase in standards of living… “devestating”. All of these restrictions on the market hurt domestic jobs more than the outsourcing you fear. Domestic restrictions and price caps and minimum wages FORCE domestic businesses to outsource to other nations in order to compete… in order to stay alive. Additionally domestic businesses, when protected from foriegn competition, become wasteful, inefficient, and allow the quality of production to lax. This is nowhere more obvious than in the domestic steel industry whose union push for protection from foriegn comeptition virtually eliminated the industry within the united states… while raising steel prices which hurt construction and ultimately are reflected in rising costs across the board.

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