Excellent! Better the Devil you know than the Devil you don’t know. How bout this radical notion: How about Independent voters and former Democratic voters banding together to get other candidates elected? This will ensure that a rightwing majority does not rule and the Democrats can pay a truly heavy price for betraying those who supported them………………

Spoil away folks. With spineless snakes and Toms like him we’re better off fighting Republicans, whom we know where they stand from the beginning.

You really are the master of a million and one excuses, aren’t you? To make a long story short:

1. Democrats control the House and Senate. That means they control the agenda, PERIOD.

2. Controlling the agenda means that you can bring any bill you wish to the floor or not bring any bill you wish to the floor. Continued funding for the Iraq war does not have to come to the floor for a vote

3. Finally, Democrats should do to Bush what the rightwing Republican fanatics in Congress did to Clinton on welfare reform: Bring the same type of bill to the floor, pass it, and then allow public pressure to force Bush to sign the stuff.

Since Democrats remain cowards, as you suggest and want them to, this explains why Cheney and Bush have not been impeached already……..

mm: There is a fallacy in your argument when you say it’s important to influence the Democratic Party, as they are the ones who should win in a D-R race. You also say 3rd parties can only ’spoil’.
You’re coming from the premise that the Democratic Party is worthy of winning. Sorry, but a win by the DP might get your rocks off, but it’ll only invade or nuke Iran nicely, or hand over the environment to the timber, oil, and coal industry with a smile, or multiply prison populations another 6 X (as Clinton did), or raise minimum wage another few dimes while keeping families in poverty, etc.

Personally, I’d take my chances with the Republicans. It’s always better to have your enemies staring you in the face rather than hiding behind, or under, rocks.

So folks, spoil away. It won’t make a difference as the D always pick the worst of the lot to run, and every D who votes for him (or her) has just snorted another hit and the high will end an hour later.

You also want Greens to influence Democratic Party platform. That’s absurd. Why would one party wish to advise another party on how to be successful when it structurally opposes so much of what the the first party believes?

This is a 2 Party system because people are afraid to do anything else.

I’ll end this with one of my favorite quotes from one of my least favorite Democrats: Harry Truman. “When given a choice between a Republican and a Republican the people vote for the Republican all the time.” How prescient!

No that’s not what I’m glibly dismissing. If your interest in this thread genuinely exceeded your own contributions, you would know that a Green running for president is perfectly acceptable to me; encouraged even.

What I glibly dismiss — I would say glib is too kind a way to describe what you and your ilk provoke — is your call for campaigning in all 50 states, which is essentially a call to waste sweat and money.

You have yet to show how any third party can, in national elections, count for anything more than spoilage. You make grand pronouncements about what would be if the prople did this and the left did that, all of which is entirely devoid of reference to anything that has ever actually happened. While you admit structural barriers have to be removed, you offer no real strategy for removing them and obviously regard them as inconsequential in the meantime, when, in fact, history shows they are definitive.There is no non-structural remedy for least worst voting.

I think you know in your heart of hearts that a Democrat or a Republican will be our next president. It follows from this then that the most Greens can do is influence who the Democrat is and their party platform. If we agree on that then we must also agree that spoilage is the most effective tool for so influencing since when winning is not an option. It follows from that that volunteers and money should go only to those states where a third party can inflict electoral damage on the Democrats and nowhere else. And since we actually want to influence the Democratic Party — it makes sense to pursue this strategy as early as possible. The ultimate point isn’t to spoil. The ultimate point is to hold an axe over Democrats to get them to pay attention.

This is not a realistic goal until the structural impediments to third-party integration are removed. Until we have runoffs and proportional representation in our elections, third parties can play but one role: spoilage for the sake of influencing the parties that do have power. Even if all Democrats are craven and soulless (and I don’t believe that’s true) they nonetheless like ot win elections. Therefore, there is leverage to influence them.

I am all for having multiple parties in our system as is normal in countries with fewer structural barriers to third party enfranchisement, but it just isn’t an option right now. It is fucking silly to keep dreaming and planning for it when no heavy lifting is being done on the structural barriers.

This is so fucking stupid every four years to have to argue this crap. A Democrat or a Republican is going to be president and everyone knows it. Dreaming about how it should be otherwise makes you neither a better person and it makes you a lousy strategist and comrade. It DOES NOT HELP.

** The Dems would have the people on their side, surely trying for it–as is their duty–wouldn’t hurt them if not get more US television watchers educated enough to demand it**

“…As I noted, I have supported Green Party candidates in the past, but stopped when I realized the futility of this approach. Where the option is only GOP vs. Green, I’d vote Green every time. I don’t see the Greens as “public enemy #1″ as some have said of the Dems. How could any thinking person who has been awake for the past six years think such an absurd thing, much less say it?…”

**How could you see the greens as public enemy #1? They don’t pretend to be opposition while taking their marching orders from the same powers that the Repubs do. At least Repubs are out of the closet…I can see the case for naming Dems, “public enemy #1″. How can any arguer hope that the people he addresses won’t notice his absurd fallacy ending this paragraph? **

“Again, no one has suggested how the Greens would handle all the issues in congress if they had the slim margin of power currently held by the Dems…It’s one thing to whine and complain about someone else not acting as quickly as you’d like, it’s another to say how you would do things differently, and better”.

**talking honestly when the microphone and cameras are on would be one. Not capitulating during a vote for another. Filibustering. Not adopting Republican talking points. Not lying. Not war profiteering. Refusing pharma, oil, and Aipac money…I’m forgetting some things…could you help?**

“..completely rhetorical…”

** lol, quit it!**

“So, Senate Majority Leader Madigan, after detailing your theoretical agenda in this session of Congress, please explain how a vote cast for the Green Party in 2006 was any more effective at bringing the troops home than spitting in the wind”.

**Senate Majority leader Longer here…effectively, it had at least as much impact as voting Dem did, but one could argue a seed theory. Personally? It meant you weren’t a coward.**

I would chalk this one up as a lost cause….

Are you coming over Sunday night? Myles, Eddie, and I are watching the Sopranos.

Clearly you have a strong emotional attachment to the Green Party, having invested an untold amount of time and capital in a failed campaign for Lt. Governor last year. That you took action to make a change (misdirected or not) should be lauded, but your level of discourse leaves a lot to be desired. While I generally respect what the Greens stand for, your sophomoric rants (”the Rethugs really suck ass!!!”) reflect poorly on your party and is one reason why many people, the vast majority in fact, don’t take the Greens seriously.

Familiarizing yourself with our country’s Constitution would also benefit you and your party greatly. To answer your question about the Constitution, Hartmann’s essay notes that the two-party system is a de-facto result of the Constitution’s “winner-take-all” process. This process can be found in Article 2., Section 1, and the 12th Amendment to the Constitution. I highly recommend reading this, as well as the rest of the Constitution.

You can read the Constitution here:

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/charters.html

You’re welcome.

You brought up impeachment as an option, but when pressed as to how the impotent Greens would implement impeachment proceedings, you punted saying only that the Greens would make the Dems pay for not pursuing impeachment at this time. You ignore the reality of the situation, which I pointed out, of the slimmest of majorities that the Democrats have in congress. Conviction of impeachable offenses requires a 2/3 vote in the Senate. Do you think that’s likely at this point in time? Do you think it makes sense for the congressional Democrats, in power for all of nearly 5 months, to gather as much evidence as possible to make a case rather than launching impeachment hearings half-cocked as it seems you would do?

I hope, for the Green Party’s sake, that you with your temperament, aren’t representative of the party as a whole. As I noted, I have supported Green Party candidates in the past, but stopped when I realized the futility of this approach. Where the option is only GOP vs. Green, I’d vote Green every time. I don’t see the Greens as “public enemy #1″ as some have said of the Dems. How could any thinking person who has been awake for the past six years think such an absurd thing, much less say it?

Again, no one has suggested how the Greens would handle all the issues in congress if they had the slim margin of power currently held by the Dems. What would Mr. Madigan, Senate Majority Leader do in this situation regarding the Iraq invasion, bringing the troops home, habeas corpus, domestic spying, and even impeachment, if you like? It’s one thing to whine and complain about someone else not acting as quickly as you’d like, it’s another to say how you would do things differently, and better.

While I’d be interested in Senate Majority Leader Madigan’s approach to these issues, they are completely rhetorical. All the votes cast for the Greens in the 2006 election have resulted in ZERO representative votes in the Senate, ZERO representative votes in the House, and ZERO representation in the Executive branch.

So, Senate Majority Leader Madigan, after detailing your theoretical agenda in this session of Congress, please explain how a vote cast for the Green Party in 2006 was any more effective at bringing the troops home than spitting in the wind.

Who are you trying to kid?

You expect me to buy this bullshit below?

**There’s a long list of people who didn’t like it — Teddy Roosevelt, H. Ross Perot, John Anderson, Pat Buchanan, Ralph Nader — but nonetheless the American constitution was written in a way that only allows for two political parties. Whenever a third party emerges, it’s guaranteed to harm the party most closely aligned to it.**

And just EXACTLY where in the Constitution does it allow for just two (2) political parties?? And the way the Dems have been acting in Congress, they deserve all the “harm” that they can get, crawling on their bellies and eating dirt. Dems don’t work for me, and don’t deserve my vote (and the Rethugs really suck ass)!!!

**The reason is because in America — unlike most other modern democracies — we have regional “winner take all” types of elections, rather than proportional representation where the group with, say, 30 percent of the vote, would end up with 30 percent of the seats in government. It’s a critical flaw built into our system…**

Well, buddy, there’s your clue. In case you did not know, laws can be introduced, enacted, and signed into law which can change that “winner take all” paradigm. There are those progressives who are fighting for Instant Runoff Voting (towns like Takoma Park, MD already have it in place), where “spoiler” is just a bad memory. Why not support a party that, besides rejecting corporate and PAC funding, is very supportive of electoral reform in its most meaningful sense? Equal access to media, the ballots, public financing (do you think a Republicrat is going to support this, them the slaves of corporate financing?)

**Well, who is going to implement that impeachment? The Greens!? Wake up! The Dems have the tools and the infrastructure in place. Take it away from them if you don’t like what they’re doing.**

We mean to do that, and no thanks to you. The Greens can make the Dems as sorry as Hell for their cowadice for not pursuing Bush/Cheney for blatantly obvious Impeachable Offenses! So much for your “tools and infrastrucure.” Where is your imagination? Third Parties, such as the Greens, can build their own infrastructure from the parts that Dems reject (you know, defending worker’s rights, fair taxation, refraining from imperialistic military adventures, single-payer health care, and so forth.) Trust me, for the Greens, the problem is nothing that some focused outreach, intense fundraising, and some coherent planning wouldn’t cure. And once that happens, the Dems will have the wheels fly right off the cart!!!

Go stay with your beloved Dems. The Greens, with some fine-tuning, can help take back this country which the Dems have given away.

To the destruction of Greed, Violence and Cowardice!!

The Democratic Party needs to be seen as public enemy #1 and declared as such. We all have a vested interest in the demise of the Democratic Party so that something that we want and that is beneficial to us and can bring us some justice can come form the ruins of the dems.

Imagine it being the true progressives V. the Republicans? That is a fight that we could easily win were it not for the Democratic Party confusing everyone and co-opting our movements. The elites don’t even have to come at us; we destroy ourselves from within. As someone recently said to my husband (Myles): activists are always allowing themselves to be co-opted to get a seat at the table so that they can be served a plate of shit.

Those that are so impatient that they would abandon the Democratic Party because the leadership failed to cut off funding for military operations in Iraq are only doing themselves (and the rest of the country) a disservice.

You think you’ll have more power outside the party? Read Harmann’s essay and take action. Instead of going to the Democrat’s party meetings and protesting and leaving, get involved, make your case, get elected to a seat on the committee and have some influence on policy. (I got involved in 2002 and have made great progress in our local party, and some progress in our state party).

At the risk of sounding insulting… For those who thought that flipping the “D” lever last November would result in the troops coming home from Iraq, here’s a lesson: Real change requires real WORK. And real work takes time.

What happens if the Dems simply cut off funding for the war and as a result, Joe Lieberman protests by joining the Republican Party? Kiss all the committee chairmanships goodbye. Hand over the Judiciary Chairmanship to the GOP and see how far the investigations go on Gonzales and the AG purge, habeas corpus, and domestic wiretapping. Our country’s Constitution is being attacked on all fronts and to throw up your hands because the Dems haven’t gained ground on one front (Iraq invasion) is very narrow minded and short-sighted. The Dems are operating with a slim majority in the House and a razor-thin single-seat majority in Senate. A senator involved in a car accident, having a brain hemorrhage, or a indulging a Connecticut-styles temper tantrum will return us to 2005 when this administration operated lawlessly and with impunity.

Thinking that abandoning the Dems increases the likelihood of success for any of y/our ideas, be they liberal or progressive or green or whatever, is like thinking that jumping out of the lifeboat into a life-preserver will give you a better chance of survival on the high seas. It’s like trading a musket for a pea-shooter. Madigan mentioned impeachment – - – Well, who is going to implement that impeachment? The Greens!? Wake up! The Dems have the tools and the infrastructure in place. Take it away from them if you don’t like what they’re doing. This makes a LOT more sense than trying to maneuver a 3rd party through a system specifically designed to thwart a 3rd party from succeeding.

Do what Harmann suggests. Take over the Democratic Party starting with your local organization first. Take ownership of it and make it yours. make it green, make it progressive. Run for an office yourself.

AND, take all the arguments being made here for abandoning the Dems and rewrite them using “immigration” and “stem-cells” and the like to encourage your Republican friends to vote Libertarian in the next elections. This is the only scenario where promoting a 3rd party will help to advance the goals of liberals and progressives.

Thom Hartmann compiled some very good reasons for this (as well as actions to take because if it) in his 2003 essay titled, “HOW TO TAKE BACK AMERICA.” Here is a brief excerpt:

*****
Alternative parties have an important place in American politics, and those in them should continue to work for their strength and vitality. They’re essential as incubators of ideas and nexus points for activism. Those on the right learned this lesson well, as many groups that at times in the past had fielded their own candidates are now still intact but have also become powerful influencers of the Republican Party. Similarly, being a Green doesn’t mean you can’t also be a Democrat.

This is not a popular truth.

There’s a long list of people who didn’t like it — Teddy Roosevelt, H. Ross Perot, John Anderson, Pat Buchanan, Ralph Nader — but nonetheless the American constitution was written in a way that only allows for two political parties. Whenever a third party emerges, it’s guaranteed to harm the party most closely aligned to it.

This was the result of a well-intentioned accident that most Americans fail to understand when looking at the thriving third, fourth, and fifth parties of democracies such as Germany, India, or Israel. How do they do it? And why can’t we have third parties here?

The reason is because in America — unlike most other modern democracies — we have regional “winner take all” types of elections, rather than proportional representation where the group with, say, 30 percent of the vote, would end up with 30 percent of the seats in government. It’s a critical flaw built into our system…

Entire essay at:
http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/how2takbakAm.pdf

*****
cont’d

My comments are interspersed

**Rah! Rah! Yes, by all means let’s see how thinly we can spread our scarce and scattered human and financial resources and thereby not make one iota of difference or exert one ounce of pressure anywhere it counts.**

You so glibly and uncritically dismiss my call for the Greens to push for a Presidential Candidate. Most Greens push for absurdly low limits and are not as agressive on outreach as they could be. As a Former Green Lt. Governor Candidate for MD, my words are based on campaign experience. There are community groups and progressive organizations who can call on supporters to donate to campaigns in terms of individual donors and volunteers. There are media outlets that will allow us to advertise through radio ads and billboards. If people are sufficiently turned of by the Dems sellout, they will back a Green Candidate.

** Really, if Greens are going to make political speeches of this kind can folks at least press them on strategy? Like — pesky person power and financial considerations aside — how do we suddenly break free of the structural and cultural impediments to third party growth? Honestly, this is getting perilously close to sitting around playing with your own turds. Jesus Christ — how many rightward lurches do you need to live through to see that THIS IS NOT WORKING.**

The Dems are so complicit in what you call “rightward lurches” that it scarcely matters which mainstream candidate enters office. Ralph Nader is a very famous example. The Dem rank and file whined, moaned, wailed, threw fits and did nearly cartwheels over Nader supposedly giving the White House to Bush. Well, ain’t that freakin’ rich! The Dems that were in the Senate and US House gave Bush everything he wanted. Those Dems elected in 2004 continued to give away the store, as did those who were elected this past November. With Dems like those, who needs Repubs?

As for “cultural and structural impediments”, are not fundraising and outreach very basic tools to convince folks to vote for average folks, as opposed to the mainstream parties that represent Corporations and Monied Special Interest PACs? Once average people see enough of us at Green-organized rallies and events, and when the Green National Leadership stops fearing fundraising, then, it will be the Dems and the Repubs’ turn to (as you so vulgarly stated) be “playing with [their] own turds.” Fundraising builds the treasury which allows third parties to do things, and Outreach gets us more human resources. And the Dems sellouts on Iraq, Torture, both Patriot Acts and etc. (in my book) make for the Perfect Green Recruitment Tool.

The Democratic Congress has signed the Democratic Party’s “Death Warrant”, because the American People will not long endure such cowardice!

It’s time to depose the greedy, the violent and the cowardly!

Ditching the Dems without embracing

We should have protests at every single DEm Party headquearters in the United States and as a movement, withdraw our support from them (though many of us haven’t supported them in a while, if ever).

The split in the “peace movement” was due to UFPJ alignment to the Democrats and their adherence to Zionism. International ANSWER despite their secularism has vehemently been a voice against Zionism and racism. This is the reason why the “left” is split.

And then there is capitalism. The Liberals adhere to neo-liberal capitalism so and they have been agents of pulling down the living standards down. There are a lot of issues but the Democrats decided to embrace racism, zionism, imperialism, and capitalism. Anyone willing to pull people into that institutional structure should be suspect.