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	<title>Comments on: My Kingdom for an Honest Coordinator</title>
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		<title>By: alan johnstone</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-829</link>
		<dc:creator>alan johnstone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 14:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-829</guid>
		<description>Charlie , 
Perhaps you might like to read what Hal Draper says about Marx and his meaning of Dictatorship of the Proletariat - a mere synonym for the conquest of political power by the working class. - in contrast to Lenin&#039;s interpretation .
 http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article2.htm

Indeed Lenin is quoted as saying “Now we are repeating what was approved by the Central EC two years ago . . . Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy (sic!) is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed” (Lenin: Collected Works, Vol. 17, p. 89. First Russian Edition).

Lenin&#039;s short article The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism (1913) is a concise explanation of the basics of Marxism (www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm). 
But by 1918 the dictatorship of the proletariat had become for Lenin “the very essence of Marx&#039;s teaching” (The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky, 1918, www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/index.htm). 
It is noticeable however that Lenin&#039;s Three Sources article contained no mention of the phrase or Lenin&#039;s particular conception of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

 And on the same site , why not read Paresh Chattopadhyay&#039;s  Manifesto of Emancipation , on Marx approach in the Gotha programme to the transitional period - which is far removed from any Leninist or Trotskyist idea of  &quot;workers state&quot; . 
 http://marxmyths.org/paresh-chattopadhyay/article.htm


And as for Lenin , was this not what he said:-
  “If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years&quot;

but from What is to be Done :-

  “The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own efforts, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc. The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical and economic theories that were elaborated by the educated representatives of the propertied classes, the intellectuals” (Foreign Languages Publishing House edition, Moscow, pp. 50-51).
“Class political consciousness can be brought to the workers only from without, that is, only from outside of the economic struggle, from outside of the sphere of relations between workers and employers” (Lenin’s emphasis, p.133).
“The spontaneous working class movement by itself is able to create (and inevitably creates) only trade unionism, and working class trade unionist politics are precisely working class bourgeois politics” (pp. 159-60) .

Is it irrelevant when we still possess political parties that claim to be socialist advocating the cul de sac of the &quot;workers state&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie ,<br />
Perhaps you might like to read what Hal Draper says about Marx and his meaning of Dictatorship of the Proletariat &#8211; a mere synonym for the conquest of political power by the working class. &#8211; in contrast to Lenin&#8217;s interpretation .<br />
 <a href="http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article2.htm</a></p>
<p>Indeed Lenin is quoted as saying “Now we are repeating what was approved by the Central EC two years ago . . . Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy (sic!) is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed” (Lenin: Collected Works, Vol. 17, p. 89. First Russian Edition).</p>
<p>Lenin&#8217;s short article The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism (1913) is a concise explanation of the basics of Marxism (www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm).<br />
But by 1918 the dictatorship of the proletariat had become for Lenin “the very essence of Marx&#8217;s teaching” (The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky, 1918, <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/index.htm</a>).<br />
It is noticeable however that Lenin&#8217;s Three Sources article contained no mention of the phrase or Lenin&#8217;s particular conception of the dictatorship of the proletariat.</p>
<p> And on the same site , why not read Paresh Chattopadhyay&#8217;s  Manifesto of Emancipation , on Marx approach in the Gotha programme to the transitional period &#8211; which is far removed from any Leninist or Trotskyist idea of  &#8220;workers state&#8221; .<br />
 <a href="http://marxmyths.org/paresh-chattopadhyay/article.htm" rel="nofollow">http://marxmyths.org/paresh-chattopadhyay/article.htm</a></p>
<p>And as for Lenin , was this not what he said:-<br />
  “If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years&#8221;</p>
<p>but from What is to be Done :-</p>
<p>  “The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own efforts, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc. The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical and economic theories that were elaborated by the educated representatives of the propertied classes, the intellectuals” (Foreign Languages Publishing House edition, Moscow, pp. 50-51).<br />
“Class political consciousness can be brought to the workers only from without, that is, only from outside of the economic struggle, from outside of the sphere of relations between workers and employers” (Lenin’s emphasis, p.133).<br />
“The spontaneous working class movement by itself is able to create (and inevitably creates) only trade unionism, and working class trade unionist politics are precisely working class bourgeois politics” (pp. 159-60) .</p>
<p>Is it irrelevant when we still possess political parties that claim to be socialist advocating the cul de sac of the &#8220;workers state&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: charlie</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 21:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-750</guid>
		<description>Marx argued that there would be a transition period, a revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, were his words in the Critique of the Gotha Programme. Lenin did not argue that the working class was incapable of anything more than trade union consciousness -- this criticism was made of social democratic parties that existed before the &quot;Leninist&quot; parties that espoused democratic centralism. This is all pretty irrelavent though, and only of interest to history buffs like me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marx argued that there would be a transition period, a revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, were his words in the Critique of the Gotha Programme. Lenin did not argue that the working class was incapable of anything more than trade union consciousness &#8212; this criticism was made of social democratic parties that existed before the &#8220;Leninist&#8221; parties that espoused democratic centralism. This is all pretty irrelavent though, and only of interest to history buffs like me.</p>
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		<title>By: alan johnstone</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-702</link>
		<dc:creator>alan johnstone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 02:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-702</guid>
		<description>Rather than direct your criticism at Marxists , the more approprisate target would have been the Leninists ( including the Trotskyist variety ) . After all , it was they and not Marx who argued that the working class required the dictatorship of a vanguard party , with professional revolutionaries to lead them  and that the working class was incapable of anything more than than trade-union consciousness .  Marx certainly never shared  these ideas . And if a Marxist did advocate such views , to paraphrase Marx , then Marx himself would not have been a Marxist .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than direct your criticism at Marxists , the more approprisate target would have been the Leninists ( including the Trotskyist variety ) . After all , it was they and not Marx who argued that the working class required the dictatorship of a vanguard party , with professional revolutionaries to lead them  and that the working class was incapable of anything more than than trade-union consciousness .  Marx certainly never shared  these ideas . And if a Marxist did advocate such views , to paraphrase Marx , then Marx himself would not have been a Marxist .</p>
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		<title>By: charlie</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-549</link>
		<dc:creator>charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 07:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-549</guid>
		<description>I am a marxist. i acknowledge that a bureaucracy exists under socialism. the point, however, is for the working class to control the bureaucracy and gradually eliminate bureaucratic forms of organisation...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a marxist. i acknowledge that a bureaucracy exists under socialism. the point, however, is for the working class to control the bureaucracy and gradually eliminate bureaucratic forms of organisation&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Kleppe</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-525</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Kleppe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-525</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_job_complex&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is a Wikipedia article on Balanced Job Complexes.

I think a lot of us, myself included, have been mired down in the current system for so long that it&#039;s hard for us to even conceive of what a truly fair arrangement would look like. That&#039;s something we need to work on, yes, but not (I hope) reason enough to start throwing people out of the movement -- and I don&#039;t even know where I&#039;d go to actually work a BJC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_job_complex" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a Wikipedia article on Balanced Job Complexes.</p>
<p>I think a lot of us, myself included, have been mired down in the current system for so long that it&#8217;s hard for us to even conceive of what a truly fair arrangement would look like. That&#8217;s something we need to work on, yes, but not (I hope) reason enough to start throwing people out of the movement &#8212; and I don&#8217;t even know where I&#8217;d go to actually work a BJC.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariadna</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariadna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 05:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-502</guid>
		<description>I agree with Dough 99.9%.
The part I reserve the right to differ on is the need and pleasure of being snippy when the call for snippiness moves us....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Dough 99.9%.<br />
The part I reserve the right to differ on is the need and pleasure of being snippy when the call for snippiness moves us&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug D.</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 01:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-496</guid>
		<description>In a sense, I agree with Eric, but I don&#039;t think the problem of elitism is restricted exclusively to Marxists. What it boils down to is education and access. Uneducated (understood as not synonymous with &quot;stupid&quot;) people indeed are more easily led, fooled, and manipulated. That shouldn&#039;t be surprising, given the global distraction industry which comprises advertising and entertainment, 24-7. 
As far as admitting the existence of a coordinator class is concerned, I don&#039;t believe that accepting this undermines any and all Marxist thought. If Marxism is understood as a conception of history (and the present and future) as being primarily moved by class relations, then there really is no conflict as far as I can see. 
Anyway, people who post comments on internet discussion boards should be less jerk-y. The powers that be are strong enough to cause progressive people problems without us alienating others by being priggish and snippy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a sense, I agree with Eric, but I don&#8217;t think the problem of elitism is restricted exclusively to Marxists. What it boils down to is education and access. Uneducated (understood as not synonymous with &#8220;stupid&#8221;) people indeed are more easily led, fooled, and manipulated. That shouldn&#8217;t be surprising, given the global distraction industry which comprises advertising and entertainment, 24-7.<br />
As far as admitting the existence of a coordinator class is concerned, I don&#8217;t believe that accepting this undermines any and all Marxist thought. If Marxism is understood as a conception of history (and the present and future) as being primarily moved by class relations, then there really is no conflict as far as I can see.<br />
Anyway, people who post comments on internet discussion boards should be less jerk-y. The powers that be are strong enough to cause progressive people problems without us alienating others by being priggish and snippy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin S.</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-487</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 22:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-487</guid>
		<description>How does the use of one quote from an anonymous so-called Marxists justify your entire article? I know for a fact that a majority of Marxists don&#039;t see working people as stupid sheep.  Once the legitimacy of the quote is called into question so goes the legitimacy of the article.  It is always nice to see what others are thinking and for that I am thankful for the time you gave to share with us your thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does the use of one quote from an anonymous so-called Marxists justify your entire article? I know for a fact that a majority of Marxists don&#8217;t see working people as stupid sheep.  Once the legitimacy of the quote is called into question so goes the legitimacy of the article.  It is always nice to see what others are thinking and for that I am thankful for the time you gave to share with us your thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Patton</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-483</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 19:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-483</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your honesty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your honesty.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip V.</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip V.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 19:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-480</guid>
		<description>Eric,
If acquiescing to your masters in the slave market makes you happy then by all means go ahead.  If you are more comfortable with them, as you appear to be, then by all means trade in your hours for a handful of nickels and dimes, for stress, for longer hours and less benefits, and for a triple bypass surgery at age 52.
I don&#039;t think working class people are stupid.  I don&#039;t think anyone is stupid.  I think they are misinformed, misdirected, and ultimately brainwashed into believing that they are getting a fair shake when they &quot;negotiate&quot; their labor contract.  If they are none of the things listed, and they truly have come to be aware of their bondage and servitutde, then it&#039;s because someone (a marxist) told them about it and it all began to make sense to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,<br />
If acquiescing to your masters in the slave market makes you happy then by all means go ahead.  If you are more comfortable with them, as you appear to be, then by all means trade in your hours for a handful of nickels and dimes, for stress, for longer hours and less benefits, and for a triple bypass surgery at age 52.<br />
I don&#8217;t think working class people are stupid.  I don&#8217;t think anyone is stupid.  I think they are misinformed, misdirected, and ultimately brainwashed into believing that they are getting a fair shake when they &#8220;negotiate&#8221; their labor contract.  If they are none of the things listed, and they truly have come to be aware of their bondage and servitutde, then it&#8217;s because someone (a marxist) told them about it and it all began to make sense to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariadna</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-478</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariadna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 18:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/05/my-kingdom-for-an-honest-coordinator/#comment-478</guid>
		<description>Question: What are &quot;balanced job complexes&quot;? Something you made up or is it a ready-made phrase not in wide circulation yet.
Correction: 
 &quot;...unlike politicians and CEOs, Marxists claim to represent me.&quot; is false. There is no US politician, NOT ONE, who does not claim to represent &quot;the American people,&quot; or pretend to deeply care about the working class (newly renamed &quot;middle class&quot;).
As for this:

&quot;  I have yet to meet a Marxist who doesn’t, deep down, think that working people need to be led in their own best interest.
Maybe you could sell that stuff to the working class 100 years ago.&quot;

What are trying to say? That 100 years ago the working people were dumb but now are smart? I&#039;d say, if anything, they are DUMBER, or else they would not have so easily relinquished the gains made over the past century (PAID overtime, the there 8s, etc). 
It all seems muddled to me projecting only a diffuse,dull and throbbing ache at the thought of the word &quot;marxist.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question: What are &#8220;balanced job complexes&#8221;? Something you made up or is it a ready-made phrase not in wide circulation yet.<br />
Correction:<br />
 &#8220;&#8230;unlike politicians and CEOs, Marxists claim to represent me.&#8221; is false. There is no US politician, NOT ONE, who does not claim to represent &#8220;the American people,&#8221; or pretend to deeply care about the working class (newly renamed &#8220;middle class&#8221;).<br />
As for this:</p>
<p>&#8221;  I have yet to meet a Marxist who doesn’t, deep down, think that working people need to be led in their own best interest.<br />
Maybe you could sell that stuff to the working class 100 years ago.&#8221;</p>
<p>What are trying to say? That 100 years ago the working people were dumb but now are smart? I&#8217;d say, if anything, they are DUMBER, or else they would not have so easily relinquished the gains made over the past century (PAID overtime, the there 8s, etc).<br />
It all seems muddled to me projecting only a diffuse,dull and throbbing ache at the thought of the word &#8220;marxist.&#8221;</p>
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